Rare photographs

[airfixfan]

Have some NCC WT. Send me a PM so we can discuss more freely?

[Lambeg man]

On 4/6/2020 at 3:20 PM, airfixfan said:

Boyd is very reliable and his book Saga on rail Ireland with many great photos and details is well worth tracking down.

The following corrections to the book Saga by Rail: Ireland should be noted. Page 12 - No. 60 was an 'S' class not an 'A' and the photo was taken at Adelaide not Portadown. Page 14 - No. 49 was a 'UG' class not an 'SG3', same page No. 36 was an 'SG3' not an 'AL' and Page 15 (upper) No. 171 is shunting back a goods train it has just hauled from Belfast not a "Westward bound goods ..... for Clones". Page 25 - The text seems to suggest that the railbus in the photo is on a Cookstown branch service. It was GNR(I) built as Railbus No. 4 but is pictured as GNR(B) No. 8177 (a departmental vehicle) after it was renumbered and is clearly on a departmental 'inspection' duty. Page 30 - No. 62 was an 'S' class not a 'T 2' and Page 46 - No. 66 was a 'U' class not a 'T 2'. I can not comment on any of the other picture captions in the book as my knowledge of narrow gauge stuff is weak.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Lambeg man

[airfixfan]

In his defence he took many detailed and unusual photos pre 1950 which are very useful. In terms of the NG stuff photo on bottom of 214 says it is 42 in March 1050 at Ballymoney

 42 on Larne line at this time and photo os clearly 41 in just applied UT  livery. This supports jhb171s point that the Ballycastle line closure was not inevitable in 1950 unlike the goods only Ballyclare branch whose sole customer closed the paper mill in May 1950.

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by airfixfan

[Lambeg man]

The UTA appears to have hung on to engines and stock for certain lines (e.g. The BCDR section) after closure until they finally got the abandonment order. Perhaps this was the case with the Ballycastle branch?

The above photo (which is from my own collection) is probably a W. Camwell picture, possibly taken in 1949 at what I think is Ballyboley Junction. I realize it does not help with the original question but I thought people might like to see it anyway.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Lambeg man

[airfixfan]

Thanks line still open at Ballyboley in 1949. The NCC NG stock not disposed until 1954vin case there were legal challenges to the closures. Same thinking about the BCDR and recent documents discovered confirm that the UT expected the line to Comber and Donaghadee to reopen. They even ordered extra MED sets for this service!

[Old Blarney]

I found this image of a set of 2600 Railcars, photographed in Bray. Looking carefully at this image, I believe the second and third coaches in this set are from former Drumm Train sets C or D. There would appear to be a common bogie connecting the two centre cars. If i'm correct, then this is an unusual image to find! 

Please note Copyright - These photos are copyrighted by their respective owners.

Transportsofdelight.smugmug.com

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Old Blarney

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

The UTA appears to have hung on to engines and stock for certain lines (e.g. The BCDR section) after closure until they finally got the abandonment order. Perhaps this was the case with the Ballycastle branch?

The above photo (which is from my own collection) is probably a W. Camwell picture, possibly taken in 1949 at what I think is Ballyboley Junction. I realize it does not help with the original question but I thought people might like to see it anyway.

That is Ballyboley Junction, yes. The pic (looking south) appears to be taken from the signal cabin, the only building left at that stage - they had removed even the platform, which was to the right of the train. A pity, as it was a very picturesque station in a scenic area - a perfect setting for a compact narrow gauge junction. The trackbed of the B & L Rly's main line is seen to the right - obviously, the train is entering what had been the Doagh branch, though by this stage it only went as far as Ballyclare.

A superb and very unusual view.

7 minutes ago, Old Blarney said:

I found this image of a set of 2600 Railcars, photographed in Bray. Looking carefully at this image, I believe the second and third coaches in this set are from former Drumm Train sets C or D. There would appear to be a common bogie connecting the two centre cars. If i'm correct, then this is an unusual image to find! 

Please note Copyright - These photos are copyrighted by their respective owners.

Transportsofdelight.smugmug.com

 

 

 

That looks to be the case, Old Blarney. A highly unusual view. I was aware that one of those later two-car sets became railcar intermediates for a VERY short while - I think less than two years in use, but I had never seen a picture of them. I assume that there was no gangway between each outer car and the 2-car Drumm in between, as photos of them before scrapping show the original cabs still there, albeit without drivers' gubbins inside.

[Gavin Hamilton]

Certainly Balleyboley Junction but I think the photograph was taken from the watertank as the light coloured debris on the ground by the loco marks where signal cabin had stood.

Gavin

[Mayner]

Railway Closures and final abandonment North & South had to be approved by a Transport Users Committee representing local community interests up to the mid/late 1950s. 

This delayed the abandonment and disposal of locos and rolling stock from early UTA closures notably the County Down until the mid-1950s.

On CIE "mouldering" branches that had lost their passenger or regular services goods and passenger services like Sallins-Tullow or Kilmessan-Athboy clung on until the 1958 Transport Act cleared the way for wholesale line closures and line abandonment without public consultation.

[Galteemore]

10 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Railway Closures and final abandonment North & South had to be approved by a Transport Users Committee representing local community interests up to the mid/late 1950s. 

This delayed the abandonment and disposal of locos and rolling stock from early UTA closures notably the County Down until the mid-1950s.

On CIE "mouldering" branches that had lost their passenger or regular services goods and passenger services like Sallins-Tullow or Kilmessan-Athboy clung on until the 1958 Transport Act cleared the way for wholesale line closures and line abandonment without public consultation.

Intriguingly, the NI Government was taken to task on one closure by a former Ulster Prime Minister in a 1950s speech at Stormont. JM Andrews (NI PM 1940-43 and brother of the Titanic designer) asked why the line could not be reopened to Comber given its likely usefulness and that it still wasn’t lifted. The fact that Andrews had been a BCDR director pre 1921 - and his family mill had sidings off the line - may have influenced his thoughts! 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Galteemore

[Patrick Davey]

That image of Ballyboley Junction is amazing - thanks for sharing it Lambeg Man and of course it begs the question....any more???

[airfixfan]

There are 4 photos and descriptions of Ballyboley Junction in March 1950 in Saga by Rail Ireland. Galteemore is certainly correct about the role of the Andrew's family whose mill provided substantial goods traffic until the end. Also the fact that the UTA ordered more MED sets than they needed for the Bangor line is revealing.

[Patrick Davey]

15 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

There are 4 photos and descriptions of Ballyboley Junction in March 1950 in Saga by Rail Ireland. Galteemore is certainly correct about the role of the Andrew's family whose mill provided substantial goods traffic until the end. Also the fact that the UTA ordered more MED sets than they needed for the Bangor line is revealing.

Thanks airfixfan, am not familiar with that publication, can you point me in the direction?  Cheers 

[airfixfan]

Author is JIC Boyd published by Oakwood Press. There is a lot on the Ballycastle branch, the Swilly and the County Donegal as well. Try Abebooks?

[Irishswissernie]

 Cheapest one on ABEBOOKS

Edited June 5, 2020 by Irishswissernie

[airfixfan]

Well worth buying at that price!

[Lambeg man]

4 hours ago, Patrick Davey said:

That image of Ballyboley Junction is amazing - thanks for sharing it Lambeg Man and of course it begs the question....any more???

Thank you to JHB and Gavin for confirming the location. I bought the photo and the one reproduced below at a jumble sale many years ago. The only thing on the back of each was "W C" which is why I guessed they were taken by W. Camwell. There is no other information on them. The year must be 1949?

 

Presumed to be the same train as in the other photo, leaving Larne for Ballyclare. Any additional information gratefully received.

[Patrick Davey]

I think this is possibly Ballyclare with the former NG station beyond the bridge?  Another jaw-dropping shot!!!!

[Patrick Davey]

Definitely Ballyclare, with the train having passed through the former passenger station beyond the bridge on its way to the paper mill a short distance ahead.  This photo from Google Earth shows the street to the left of the train.  

[airfixfan]

1 hour ago, Lambeg man said:

Thank you to JHB and Gavin for confirming the location. I bought the photo and the one reproduced below at a jumble sale many years ago. The only thing on the back of each was "W C" which is why I guessed they were taken by W. Camwell. There is no other information on them. The year must be 1949?

 

Presumed to be the same train as in the other photo, leaving Larne for Ballyclare. Any additional information gratefully received.

Definitely Ballyclare with that distinctive building on the Main Street in the background. Would be the same train as the goods left for Ballyclare in the morning and returned in the afternoon.

[Lambeg man]

Well, another query solved. Thanks guys for taking the trouble. Don't know why I thought it was Larne.

Here is one more picture I need help with. This might not even be Irish as there was nothing on the back of the photo when I bought it. However at first glance I thought the track looked too wide for 4' 8 1/2". I thought they might be the DNGR locomotives after the line closed. If they are, where was this one taken?

 

Location? Date? Photographer? Any help appreciated.

[Irishswissernie]

Thats a GNRI footbridge in the background and 4 of the DN&GR locos were broken up by Hammonds at Sutton on the Howth branch which I think had a covered footbridge in that style

[Lambeg man]

Hi Ernie,

Many thanks for that suggestion. However the footbridge at Sutton was not covered in this 1957 Norman Simmons picture. Was it previously covered?

[jhb171achill]

30 minutes ago, Lambeg man said:

Well, another query solved. Thanks guys for taking the trouble. Don't know why I thought it was Larne.

Here is one more picture I need help with. This might not even be Irish as there was nothing on the back of the photo when I bought it. However at first glance I thought the track looked too wide for 4' 8 1/2". I thought they might be the DNGR locomotives after the line closed. If they are, where was this one taken?

 

Location? Date? Photographer? Any help appreciated.

Mid 1950s, ex-Dundalk, Newry & Greenore engines. All three numberplates are off, so we can't tell which ones. One might be No. 6, "Holyhead", which Cyril Fry got a name and numberplate off - they are now on display in Malahide. I suspect Sutton, yes, though I can't place the concrete-faced platform. Definitely a GNR footbridge, but Sutton's covered two tracks, and that footbridge does seem a bit longer. 

As Lambegman says, I don't recall either seeing a pic of Sutton FB being covered. The pic above of the railcar there in 1957 shows it isn't, but the DNGR closed in 1951, so it might have been then.

Unless we can establish that Sutton's WAS covered in, say, 1952, but this was later removed, then it's NOT Sutton. If it is not Sutton, the only places it could possibly be are somewhere the locos would have been en route to be scrapped in Dublin. Is it possible they went for onward transit to Dublin via Goraghwood? It had a covered FB. Otherwise Dundalk, but I'm sure that's not Dundalk station. It's not Drogheda either.

Edited June 5, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Galteemore]

Here’s Sutton station via this site..http://irishrailwayarchitecture.blogspot.com/2018/11/watt-shock-sutton.html?m=1

The edges of the picture do suggest a covered footbridge. Agreed - it’s not Dundalk or Drogheda

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Galteemore

[Irishswissernie]

The footbridge looks longer but it isn't there are only 2 tracks as you can see by the black panels. The steps however do not both go off on the same side so it looks longer but its because the steps on the rh side go off the other side

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, Irishswissernie said:

The footbridge looks longer but it isn't there are only 2 tracks as you can see by the black panels. The steps however do not both go off on the same side so it looks longer but its because the steps on the rh side go off the other side

Then that's it, Ernie - excellent stuff!

So the pic is when that trio were taken there for scrapping. It is therefore likely that one of them is indeed no. 6.

[Lambeg man]

 

Hi all, lifted this from wickipedia -

Number	Name	Crewe Works No.	Date built	Notes
1	Macrory	1509	1873	scrapped in Adelaide, Belfast
2	Greenore	1510	1873	scrapped in Sutton, Co. Dublin by Hammond Lane Foundry
3	Dundalk	1511	1873	scrapped in Sutton, Co. Dublin by Hammond Lane Foundry
4	Newry	1962	1876	scrapped in Sutton, Co. Dublin by Hammond Lane Foundry
5	Carlingford	1963	1876	Withdrawn 1928
6	Holyhead	3877	1898	scrapped in Sutton, Co. Dublin by Hammond Lane Foundry

 

It appears to confirm Sutton, but as JHB said where was that platform in relation to Sutton station proper? Looking on the map featured in  http://irishrailwayarchitecture.blogspot.com/2018/11/watt-shock-sutton.html?m=1 there is no track shown in the area where the picture was presumably taken from (looking north towards the station?

Edited June 5, 2020 by Lambeg man

[Irishswissernie]

I think its part of the sidings to the Hill of Howth tramway, there was also a Power station there for the tramway which wasn't used in the later days and became the site of Hammonds scrapyard. I read this somewhere but can't recall where. Sxxt the dogs eating me cheese on toast!! 

[jhb171achill]

It looks to be within the confines of the tram depot, given the spiked track, light rail, and distance from the footbridge. But I was unaware of any platform like that within the tram depot.

36 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Here’s Sutton station via this site..http://irishrailwayarchitecture.blogspot.com/2018/11/watt-shock-sutton.html?m=1

The edges of the picture do suggest a covered footbridge. Agreed - it’s not Dundalk or Drogheda

 

Hard to imagine the Howth branch without litter and high-security fencing!

And there's railcar "F", which the UTA bought a few years later for the Warrenpoint branch. There's a model of it on display in Malahide now........ There was also a lovely model of it built by Brendan Kelly, which ran in the castle. Such was Brendan's great workmanship, I got it mixed up with Fry's model for a while......

[Irishswissernie]

That concrete loading platform looks pretty new in comparison to the rest of the photo.

Here's a blow up of a print I have from June 1956 you can see the same style of a loading bank in front of the box. The box is hidden by the locos in the rare print. There are also coaches stored on the siding in the blow up in the same position as the van on the RH siding in the photo.

Rails around Dublin  by Donal Murray page 37 , bottom photo confirms footbridge was covered.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Irishswissernie

[Lambeg man]

Ernie, you are a star. I had forgotten the 'Rails Around Dublin' photo. The credit "SLS Collection" indicates it is a Camwell photo? So possibly he also took the one I have asked about?

Many thanks to all who took the trouble to pitch in and solve this one. Well done JHB for spotting the "spiked" tramway rails. SUTTON it is!

Edited June 5, 2020 by Lambeg man

[airfixfan]

On 6/5/2020 at 12:11 AM, jhb171achill said:

That is Ballyboley Junction, yes. The pic (looking south) appears to be taken from the signal cabin, the only building left at that stage - they had removed even the platform, which was to the right of the train. A pity, as it was a very picturesque station in a scenic area - a perfect setting for a compact narrow gauge junction. The trackbed of the B & L Rly's main line is seen to the right - obviously, the train is entering what had been the Doagh branch, though by this stage it only went as far as Ballyclare.

A superb and very unusual view.

That looks to be the case, Old Blarney. A highly unusual view. I was aware that one of those later two-car sets became railcar intermediates for a VERY short while - I think less than two years in use, but I had never seen a picture of them. I assume that there was no gangway between each outer car and the 2-car Drumm in between, as photos of them before scrapping show the original cabs still there, albeit without drivers' gubbins inside.

Drumm railcars C and D were converted in 1953 to run as trailers with the new AEC CIE railcars sets. There is a reference to this in IRRS Journal 12.

Edited June 7, 2020 by airfixfan

[airfixfan]

On 6/5/2020 at 3:46 PM, Lambeg man said:

Well, another query solved. Thanks guys for taking the trouble. Don't know why I thought it was Larne.

Here is one more picture I need help with. This might not even be Irish as there was nothing on the back of the photo when I bought it. However at first glance I thought the track looked too wide for 4' 8 1/2". I thought they might be the DNGR locomotives after the line closed. If they are, where was this one taken?

 

Location? Date? Photographer? Any help appreciated.

IRRS Journal 11 records that 2,3,4 and 6 were hauled dead from Dundalk to Sutton on April 15th 1952. So why only 3 locos in that photo? Same issue notes that number 1 moved from Newry to Adelaide light engine. This backs up the story that attempts were made to preserve this DNGR locomotive.

[jhb171achill]

Yes, there was indeed talk of preserving one. 

I believe No. 6 was considered for some reason now unknown, but it ended up being No. 1.

This was too early for the Belfast Transport Museum, so I assume that it was the GNR who planned to preserve it. Shame it didn't happen; an ideal beast to operate at Downpatrick!

I think I remember hearing that it was broken up in error.