WL&WR brake vans and Sprite

[David Holman]

Any idea where I might find photos or drawing of Waterford Limerick and Western Railway brake vans?

 Haven't been able to find anything thus far, but would like to build one to go with my 'mail goods', as hauled by 0-6-0 Shannon.

 While I'm here, something even more obscure. The new book Locomotives of the GSW has a drawing of Sprite with its 4w coach, which made up the 'pay train'. This toured the whole system on a fortnightly basis, so I fancy having a go at building a model. The question is, what was the internal layout of the coach? Suspect there may have been a toilet at the loco end, but what about the rest?

 Any ideas welcome, please...

[jhb171achill]

54 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Any idea where I might find photos or drawing of Waterford Limerick and Western Railway brake vans?

 Haven't been able to find anything thus far, but would like to build one to go with my 'mail goods', as hauled by 0-6-0 Shannon.

 While I'm here, something even more obscure. The new book Locomotives of the GSW has a drawing of Sprite with its 4w coach, which made up the 'pay train'. This toured the whole system on a fortnightly basis, so I fancy having a go at building a model. The question is, what was the internal layout of the coach? Suspect there may have been a toilet at the loco end, but what about the rest?

 Any ideas welcome, please...

The W & L was made up of a multiplicity of different companies, so by the time it became the WL&WR it is probable that there were barely two vans alike. Personally I am unaware of the survival of details of any of them. If I was undertaking your project, I would probably use an early GSWR one, as these would been interchanged with their own after 1901 anyway. Sorry, that's the best I can do!

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, David Holman said:

Any idea where I might find photos or drawing of Waterford Limerick and Western Railway brake vans?

 Haven't been able to find anything thus far, but would like to build one to go with my 'mail goods', as hauled by 0-6-0 Shannon.

 While I'm here, something even more obscure. The new book Locomotives of the GSW has a drawing of Sprite with its 4w coach, which made up the 'pay train'. This toured the whole system on a fortnightly basis, so I fancy having a go at building a model. The question is, what was the internal layout of the coach? Suspect there may have been a toilet at the loco end, but what about the rest?

 Any ideas welcome, please...

Looking at my copy of the book, David, it appears that the rear part of the vehicle - furthest from the engine - was probably used as the pay office, with staff receiving pay at the rear door. I’d imagine a desk with a lifting counter across the doorway. Probably with racks on either side. A bank in one of the heritage villages such as Cultra or Beamish might give some inspiration as to the style of Victorian cash handling. @jhb171achill may remember banks like this - I know my dad does from his working life.
 

The rear compartment with conventional seating and perhaps a toilet as you say. The safe may have been in either compartment - in such a small vehicle it’s equally vulnerable wherever it goes! Given the amount of interference that went on with the railways 1919-23, I’d be interested to know if it was ever stopped and robbed - it seems a very vulnerable and predictable target with such regular patterns of use. I wonder if they included a Royal Irish Constabulary/Garda Siochana escort - Irish Army more likely than police post 1922 I suppose given their armed status.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

Many thanks both!

Seems to me that brake vans are a sometimes neglected area in early Irish Railway history, but what is available can be fascinating - the MGWR examples especially, though my favourites remain the SLNCR road vans - possibly the shortest mixed train ever?

 As for the pay coach, the bank counter idea is an excellent one and one wonders if there were ever any Butch and Sundance style attacks, especially in the early years of seeking independence and the civil war too. You'd certainly think there would have to be a safe and the little ensemble must have been a tempting target.

 Am hoping to get up to Beamish this summer. Meanwhile, need to delve into my photos of Cultra, methinks.

[jhb171achill]

For reasons of security, the movements of this vehicle were never included in the weekly circulars; they were arranged ad hoc at the last minute. I am unaware of any "heists" ever having taken place!

The bank counter - yes! And all those branches are shut now...........!

And yes, staff walked up one side of the carriage end steps, got their money, and down the other side.

[David Holman]

Look what I've found...

 Had another look through Ernie Shepherd's history of the WL&W and on p16 there is what seems to be an early photo showing an 0-4-2T with a brake van. A close up is shown below and it looks not a million miles from the Dublin and Meath brake vans I bought from the Richard Chown estate. Hence have tried to combine the two & a sketch plan is included for comment. The D&M van is 18 feet long on a 10ft wheelbase.

 Photos in Ernie's book show WLW wagons in unpainted timber, but with black iron work. Was this actually the case, or are the photos done by the builders?

 

[Rob R]

Hi, I hope you don't mind me resurrecting an oldish thread.

In the National Library of Ireland online photo collection there are some nice WLWR period views of Foynes.

This one (when you zoom in) shows the tail end of a brake van, presumeably WLWR as all the other visible stock is WLWR.

Foynes

Zoomed in

A different type of van is clearly visable in a couple of later views but as they were taken in early GSWR days it may well be from that company not the WLWR

Another Foynes view

Another GSWR? Brake Van

Edited August 15, 2023 by Rob R

[Flying Snail]

These are very nice indeed! There's some great detail in those National Library photos  - especially when you consider how far away many of them were taken. I've been looking at lot at the ones the National Library has from the Waterford area too.

[Mayner]

4 hours ago, Rob R said:

Hi, I hope you don't mind me resurrecting an oldish thread.

In the National Library of Ireland online photo collection there are some nice WLWR period views of Foynes.

This one (when you zoom in) shows the tail end of a brake van, presumeably WLWR as all the other visible stock is WLWR.

Foynes

Zoomed in

A different type of van is clearly visable in a couple of later views but as they were taken in early GSWR days it may well be from that company not the WLWR

Another Foynes view

Another GSWR? Brake Van

The Brake Vans two different designs on with/one without veranda appear similar in construction and outline to a MGWR design dating from the 187O. Martin Atock held the post of Waterford and Limerick Locomotive Superintendent for 11 years before moving to the Midland in 1872 and may have designed the Brake Vans in the photos.

The 'Covered Wagon" beside the crane in the second photo appears to be a MGWR design, the other covered wagons appear to be GSWR with their distinctive end framing with a single post supporting the roof.

I think most of the wagons on Richard Chown's Castle Rackrent layout were based on British Rolling Stock Manufacturers drawings from UK museum collections.

[Rob R]

Here is a similar (or the same) van at Waterford.

I take it that if and when I eventually build one of these vans, I should be able to letter it WLWR with a reasonable degree of confidence?

The rest of the goods yard is well worth a zoom around as well.

Waterford Brake Van

[Rob R]

There was a question a few posts back  about the livery of WLWR wagons, the 2 in Ernie Sheperds book from the Gloucester Carriage and Wagon Co are shown varnished timber with black ironwork and lettering.

Here is one of the cattle trucks in service still with the black lettering and presumeably the varnished timber weathered down so that it looks grey.

All the other wagons in these photos and others are lettered in white so presumeably it was just the GWC batch.

Donkey 01

Donkey 02

I have put both links in as the people have moved around between photos uncovering different bits of the wagons.

The HMRS have the underframe drawing for these cattle vans

Cattle van underframe

Edited August 16, 2023 by Rob R

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, Rob R said:

There was a question a few posts back  about the livery of WLWR wagons, the 2 in Ernie Sheperds book from the Gloucester Carriage and Wagon Co are shown varnished timber with black ironwork and lettering.

Here is one of the cattle trucks in service still with the black lettering and presumeably the varnished timber weathered down so that it looks grey.

All the other wagons in these photos and others are lettered in white so presumeably it was just the GWC batch.

Donkey 01

Donkey 02

I have put both links in as the people have moved around between photos uncovering different bits of the wagons.

The HMRS have the underframe drawing for these cattle vans

Cattle van underframe

The cattle wagon looks relatively modern by the standards of the time a 14' Van similar in appearance to the GNR(I) vans built into the 1950s, a wooden top rail rather than a metal rail at door head level and solid planked sides appear to be the main spotting diffrences.

[Rob R]

Re:- Donkey pictures

Just for completeness, details from Ernie Sheperd's book.

From left to right

1038 Swansea Wagon Company 1892

1127 Gloucester C&W Company 1895

609 Limerick 1886 "renewal" of Bristol C&W company 1871

1047 Swansea Wagon Company 1892

1108 Limerick 1894

plus 2 possible W&CIR.

 

Rob

 

[Killian Keane]

Found yesterday on one of my strolls on the interwebs whilst looking for something else, perhaps of interest