Mol_PMB

Thank you! Quick question though - do these have 26mm or 28mm axles?

It appears that the GSWR introduced some unusually large goods vans, which survived into the 1960s and some into the 1970s. I've seen one reference where these are referred to as 'Big Boy' vans which seems appropriate even if they aren't Union Pacific Mallet locos - they are bigger than the rolling stock around them. I've gathered some photos but would welcome more information especially a drawing or a list of numbers. To illustrate the type of van I'm talking about, here's one pictured later in its life, image posted by Ernie on Flickr: They were significantly taller than the H vans and most other vans. I think they were also a bit longer, but this was exaggerated by the relatively short wheelbase and small W-irons and journals which gave them an 'elephant-on-a-skateboard' look! This HMRS photo of van 1150 dated 1907 shows an early variant with wooden body ribs; most of them had metal structural members. As far as I can tell they all had metal underframes. https://hmrs.org.uk/-abn530--10t-goods-van-gswr-1150--op--1907-r3l--open-spoke-wheels-photo-no--s-801.html This IRRS photo dated 1969 shows number 924, presumably in the same number series as 1150 above. However, 924 is the more common type with metal body framing and planked sides and ends. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511622719 The other photos I've found all seem to be in the 15000 series. Most have horizontally planked sides and ends, with vertically planked doors. Here's 15236 in 1975: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511125251 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570652283 15175 towering over an older 'convertible' van in 1957: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252992446 15279 in 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257012444 15506 and 15515 in 1968: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570455881 A partial view from Ernie: (edit: removed photo of 15458 posted in error - not this type) The first photo I posted showed a van re-clad with ply, but retaining planked doors. There's a similar one here, partly hiding but nevertheless obvious owing to its height: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507606107 Has anyone got more info on these: drawings, dimensions, more photos, a model you have built? Cheers, Mol

Here's the one I was thinking of: yellow frame, white tank, rather worn Bell logo and lettering. It appears to be a leased tank with an SCXU code: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509438550 The one I posted way upthread is the only true Bell tank I've seen, in full Bell livery, and is a rather older type: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419646114

The HMRS archive has some nice views of the Tar Bitumen tanks built by Charles Roberts, when new. Here's 23855 when new in 1954: [AAT037] 15T tank CIE 23855, 5' 3"gauge loaded on Flatrol 168964, ex-Works. For Tar / Bitumen traffic. 25002 in 1962: [AAU529] 14T tar bitumen tank CIE 25002 on Flatrol [OP] Chas Roberts yard 25018, also in 1962, view of the other side: [AAU532] 14T tar bitumen tank CIE 25018 on Flatrol [OP] Chas Roberts yard

The HMRS collection has a clear view of one of the first batch of wagons retaining its wheel handbrake into the mid 1980s: [ADP157] CIE 25050 cement wagon

HMRS has a photo of the Silver Princess in use in Ireland: [ACX510] Silver Princess coach The date is given as 1 September 1948 and the location as Limerick.

Also from Jonathan Allen in 1971, here's B131 without handrails along the bonnet, but with the handrails in black but a bit of the original yellow showing through: By this time I think most of the class had the full handrails along the side, but they were painted black.

This photo from Jonathan Allen on Flickr is an interesting one. As late as 1971, a 121 class without the handrails alongside the bonnet, but with the handrails at each end picked out in orange:

He also inhabits the vacuum cleaner, causing a strange rattle that makes you wonder 'was that the bit I dropped' when it's seconds too late to do anything about it.

If you have bored yourself to death by reading my E401 kit instructions, you will notice a few places where they say 'these parts are small and fragile so I have provided some spares on the etch'. Amazing how many kit designers don't do that, yet leave large areas of the fret blank...

I'll have to have another look through my own photos at some stage. I'm sure I've got a photo of a 201 with a longish train of Mk3 push-pull coaches somewhere between Cork and Mallow. I remember a set was regular on the Dublin-Waterford route for a while, and of course there was the short Limerick set.

Somewhere I previously found a photo of one with a white tank and Bell branding, but with a yellow framework if I recall correctly. I'm struggling to find it again! I found a few other nice Bell container shots while I was looking, but no tanks...

Interesting - many thanks, I never knew that. Was this to enable a longer train beyond the capacity of the small generator in the driving car? Or was the driving car omitted entirely? What was the maximum speed for such a train? I recall the push-pulls had a lower speed limit perhaps owing to the different bogies on most of the driving cars?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419646114

Looks good. See what your mentor says, but if I were building it I would drill some holes roughly where I've put the red spots below, so that I could solder the overlay panels from the back.

With my pedantic head on... Suburban push-pull coaches didn't say Intercity on the side, well not in their earlier years at least. The unique buffet car 6402 had all sealed windows but could run in Mk3 push-pull sets, it was on the Waterford link for a while. I thought the three Mk3 EGVs were converted for the Enterprise rather than the regular suburban push-pulls.

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I think this just refers to downloading images, rather than viewing them. Users can block downloads of their images and IRRS has done this anyway, so I don't think this will affect IRRS images. Though my interpretation may be wrong. IRRS is a Pro member.

Further on the 'Silver Princess', and additional to the thread linked by Mogul, there is an article with drawings in N.I.L. 3.6 (November 2004) available here: https://newirishlines.org/archive/ There is a good broadside view of it in original condition in Harris's book on BR MK2 coaches. Also here in a photo from Robert Carroll's collection:

The title 'Waterford and Dublin Junction Railway' and the idea of a terminus on the peninsula made me think of the reversal at Kilkenny, with the Lavistown direct line.

A few things to consider: Gradients From lengths of stations on your plans it looks like you plan to run quite long trains. What's the steepest gradient your planned train formations will be able to climb? And what gradient will can the loco restart the train on? Curves also add extra resistance - what's the steepest gradient on a curve that the trains can manage? In general, steam loco models don't pull as well as modern diesel locos. You may also need to improve the free-running of some of your rolling stock. You could do some experiments on this with a plank and a few lengths of track. The last thing you want is to spend ages building a layout and then find your favourite trains are slipping to a stand or burning out motors. Once you've worked out a suitable gradient then you can look at other aspects of the design. For the purposes of the next stages I'm going to guess at a maximum 1:60 gradient on curves. Helixes On a helix the tracks are arranged vertically above each other. This means that there is a minimum vertical spacing between the tracks that has to account for your tallest rolling stock, plus the height of the track, the underlay, the board and any board supports, and a little bit of clearance. In 4mm scale this will total around 80mm. With the 1:60 gradient, that means that the track distance around the circumference of the helix must be 80 x 60 = 4800mm. Divide by pi (3.14) to get the diameter of the helix = approx 1500mm. That's the diameter of the (inner) track centreline and so the outer diameter of the helix will be a bit more, especially if it's double track - approx 1600mm. That would be quite big on your room plan, though not impossible, and it would wipe out a good amount of scenic space. Making the helix more compact requires increasing the gradient and making the curves sharper, both of which will limit the train length that can reliably climb them. Multiple Level Scenic Layout Here the levels have to be further apart than a helix - usually a lot further apart. Below the track you'll need thicker supports for the boards, and space for point motors, wiring etc. Above the track you'll need space for trains and scenery. But crucially you also need space to build and maintain these, so space to get your arms and head in, space for a power drill, screwdriver, hammer, static grass applicator, whatever. I'd say you would need around 500mm minimum between scenic levels, although this could be reduced if one or more of the levels is narrow (shelf-like) and can be accessed easily from the side. Think about how you will lay track accurately, install point motors etc in a confined space. And how you can replace/maintain those items once installed and with all the scenery around them. Whole-room-spiral layout Put the multiple levels on a gradient and you get a whole room spiral which I think is what @Horsetan is suggesting, and is also basically what I'm doing with my Swiss layout (which is end-to-end). It looks like the circuit of your room would be about 10000mm so for a 1:60 gradient you would achieve 10000/60 = 167mm spacing between levels. That's nowhere near enough for a scenic level. You could perhaps alternate scenic and non-scenic levels (i.e. just have plain track on a shelf against the back wall on the intermediate levels) which would double the run length and double the spacing between scenic levels. Of course you can steepen the gradient, if your trains can manage it reliably. Whole-room spirals are fundamentally end-to-end layouts because of the level difference between the two ends, unless you add a second, inverted spiral or helix to get the trains back down to where they started. That's starting to get really complex. I don't mean to discourage you, just to give you food for thought. A really important factor is to set your maximum gradient because the geometry of everything else is defined by that.

I have a long-term project with a multi-level layout in my garage, in Swiss Om scale. There are challenges in achieving a satisfactory vertical spacing between levels - once you have considered the thickness of the board, support, point motors, scenery and space to view it etc then you need a good 400-500mm between scenic levels. Helixes have a large footprint regardless of gradient but become even bigger for more gentle gradients. It’s all possible but needs careful planning!

Agreed, though I think that’s a significant factor in the retention of ancient 4-wheel trams in Lisbon. The modern trans formed of many small segments like a caterpillar might struggle with Lisbon’s combination of hills and sharp curves. Even the 4-wheelers become 3-wheelers on one of the summits! More puzzling to me: 1. It crosses the river east of the city island, presumably a new bridge but both banks in this area are actively used by shipping at present, as are some wharves a little upstream, and a bridge here would prevent that. There’s no room for the approaches to a tunnel under. 2. Where is the airport branch?

CIE had some of these smaller tanks to the RCH 1907 regulations too: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510434252 There were also larger Class A tanks (silver, for less dense products with a lower flash point) and some of the newer ones (1930s onwards) were pretty similar to the Dapol 'Air Ministry' tanks recently released in both 7mm and 4mm scales. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251527313/in/album-72157661623942928 There were also older Class A tanks to the 1907 specifications: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511761675

There are some more photos and info on the Irish Shell wagons in N.I.L. 3.2 November 2002, available to read here: Archive | New Irish Lines edit: also see N.I.L. 2.6 November 2001 for more on Irish tank wagons and some further references.

I've seen reference to Irish Shell transfers available from SSM, but I can't see them on the website. Custom transfers are easy and cheap though. It would certainly be a possibility for IRM to partner with Oxford in the same way that they have done with Heljan; that may be easier now that Oxford is independent of Hornby. But I don't have a crystal ball as to whether that might occur. I quite fancy an older class B (black) tank wagon to provide fuel for the imaginary fishing boats on my imaginary Fenit layout.