Mol_PMB

This weekend's efforts have had a distinctly Great Northern theme. Neither are quite finished yet... The brake van will be completed in 1970s NIR condition, about as tatty as the cement van.

Sorry, I missed this post earlier. That's some great information, many thanks! I'm gradually trying to piece together a list of the NIR wagon stock so that's very helpful. Just a thought on your last point, I wonder if it was just the roller bearing axleboxes and springs that were re-used on two brake vans, like the one I'm asking about in this thread:

It looks like the restaurant might need to add mutton to the menu...

Sorting through my old Irish photos a couple of days ago, I actually found one of my own which shows the end of the traverser pit and that it was fed by just one external siding: The corner of the 1858 WLWR shed is on the left; the main wagon works building is on the right. I was almost certainly trespassing, but didn't dare go any further!

I'm looking for photos of the ex-GNR goods brake vans retained by NIR into the 1970s. There are two excellent images of C461 in Jonathan Allen's flickr albums, linked here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49497154092 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49496930316 It should be noted that the van has been modified from its GNR condition, including roller bearings, steel plates over some of the bodywork, mesh over some of the windows, and removal of most of the footsteps. I'd like to model this van in exactly this condition, but ideally I'd like some photos of the other side/end. Can anyone help? The van doesn't have to be the main focus of the photo, it's fine if it's in the background somewhere. Note that this is not the van preserved at Whitehead as 'Ivan' although that is of the same type and I would also be interested to see photos of that in NIR days. This photo, also from Jonathan Allen, includes just a bit of one of the GNR vans on the left-hand side, as well as a nice view of an NCC van which does show what the 'livery' looked like in colour, with the rust showing through the thin grey paint: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/39299741684/ This is a nice view from Robert McConaghy of the NCC type in later years showing the typical weathering, but the kit I'm building is the GNR type: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmac2013/11441044364/ Many thanks, Mol

Great, many thanks. That shows the red-brown livery in quite good condition, except on the side plates which contact the tippler. There doesn't appear to be a painted number - just the worksplate. Also there is extra reinforcing on the solebar compared to the previous picture - maybe this is one of the second batch of wagons and they were subtly different?

The photo of a zinc wagon in the 1979 and 1981 editions of Doyle&Hirsch shows 26550, one of the original batch of wagons, apparently freshly repainted in brown livery. The body colour is darker than the original, and the position and style of the numbering is different from the as-built wagons. The photo cannot be later than 1979 so it dates from the period when these wagons were still in service. However, the tubular frame sheet support has been removed.

This NLI photo dated 1971 shows a rake of empties at Limerick, and these aren't brand new. On the vertical plates on the sides, you can see horizontal marks, and I expect these occurred while the wagons were being tippled. It helps to explain the presence of these plates, a distinctive feature of the design. https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307774 The NLI image of the tippler itself is very dark, so I've increased the brightness and contrast to show how the wagons sat in the tippler: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307509 This IRRS photo dated 1967 shows what must have been almost the whole fleet of zinc wagons at that time, brand new: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509307274/ The IRRS archive contains several photos of the tippler, but the wagon being demonstrated is a 'dummy wagon' for tippler testing, rather than a zinc wagon: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53448459822/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511477268/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509153753/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570455456/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511311296/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510446947/ It has been very difficult to find any photos of the zinc wagons actually in service! Most photos seem to be either brand new or well-rusted after decades out of use. Looking at the 1973 working timetable, on weekdays the booked timings for the 'Laden Mogul' and 'Empty Mogul' were as follows: Limerick dep 06:30, Foynes arr 07:38 Foynes dep 09:45, Silvermines arr 12:10 Silvermines dep 13:15, Foynes arr 15:40 Foynes dep 14:45, Silvermines arr 20:00 Silvermines dep 20:55, Limerick 22:05 By 1975 only the daytime service was a booked train and the other was just a path. Booked traction was a Ar / 001 class: Path 5404 Limerick dep 06:30, Foynes arr 07:38 Path 5405 Foynes dep 10:15, Silvermines arr 12:45 / Train 5405 Limerick dep 11:35, Silvermines arr 12:45 Train 5410 Silvermines dep 13:15, Foynes arr 15:45 Path 5411 Foynes dep 18:00, Silvermines arr 20:50 / Train 5411 Foynes dep 18:00, Limerick arr 19:22 Path 5418 Silvermines dep 21:05, Limerick 22:15 The 1978 WTT has basically the same pattern with some minor alterations to timings in places. As @Mayner notes above, the traffic ceased in 1982. My next WTT is 1985 and as one might expect there is no provision for Mogul paths. Has anyone got more photos of these wagons that they could share here?

Now, Ernie also captured them rusting away, at closer quarters than I managed: And the IRRS archive has this photo of a rather strange freight train passing Lucan, comprised mostly of empty zinc ore wagons but with some other stuff too https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53445961982

What I don't really know is how long this traffic lasted, and whether the wagons found other any uses afterwards. As tipplers without any side doors or dropsides, they would not have been very useful to the PW department. But yet they seem to have survived a long time. Most of my photos above are from the early 2000s but this is another of mine probably about 1990 showing a long rake of them going to rust. I can't remember the location but possibly Gort?

Having written a few wagon threads recently where I have plundered others' photos for illustrations, I scanned a load of my old wagon photos last night, and I have some material of my own to illustrate this thread. I'll have to rely on others for the more historical stuff though. The 4-wheel zinc ore wagons were built in the late 1960s for a traffic flow from Silvermines to Foynes, for export. After a long closure, the Foynes line is now being rebuilt and one of the proposed traffics is, once again, zinc ore for export. So it seems an opportune time to write about the wagons. Who knows whether they will feature in IRM's plans - they were quite geographically limited and fairly short-lived in original form. Wagons 28528 to 26569 (total 42) were built in 1967, with a further batch of 13 being completed in 1970: 26653 to 26665. They used the 'standard' CIE vacuum-braked underframe, 12' wheelbase with roller bearings and a length of 20' over headstocks. However, the underframe had a few features not quite standard with any of the other types. The O'Dea collection on the NLI archive has an excellent selection of photos of these wagons, including the links below. However, several of them are flipped left/right in the scans so I've taken the liberty of correcting one of the images and posting it directly here, to show the wagons as-built in 1967. The wagon bodies were a very peculiar shape and quite distinctive. Like the present-day Tara Mines wagons, it was necessary to keep the ore dry, and a welded tubular framework was placed over the top of the wagon to support a sheet. To work with this, the tops of the wagon sides were rounded, and further down the wagon sides and ends there were protruding hooks to secure the sheet. At one end, there was a transverse tray which was used to store the sheet when not in use. I think they were painted in the light grey that would have been standard at the time. Although there was plenty of lettering on the solebar, there was none on the body and the CIE roundel was absent. This and other images can be seen here: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306182 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306183 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307326 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307510 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307436 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307569 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307570 Again an NLI image linked above, this shows a rake of the wagons with the sheets fitted. Despite the support framework, the sheets are sagging in places - perhaps it has been raining? But to me, that support framework looks rather lightweight and considering the way that dense minerals are often dumped into wagons, I wouldn't be surprised if the framework itself became damaged over time. This image shows one of the wagons being tippled at Foynes, in a pretty massive tippler machine: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307509 This IRRS photo in colour shows a rake of wagons awaiting loading at Silvermines: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53449795905 Now, I may come back to the history as I continue my research, but this is how I remember them. Rusty and dumped at either Limerick or Limerick Junction. By the early 2000s they had lost all traces of paint, and the sheet supports had vanished too.

Used over 15 years after the MR NCC became the LMS NCC!

Thanks. If the mood takes me, I might do something similar for other classes. I picked the B101s to do first because it was a small and relatively short-lived class. The A's and C's would be a bit daunting, and the GMs a bit dull; I might do D's E's and G's.

I'm a bit doubtful of the livery sequence shown for B113, I think at least one of the photo dates is wrong. It was -G- in 1959: And in 1960: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499016749/ This photo shows B113 in plain green, 'circa 1962': https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511770384/ This photo from Ernie is dated 1962 but is the one I'm most doubtful of the date, because it would mean that 113 was painted plain black before it was painted black and deep tan. Also in this photo it is surrounded by black Metrovicks so I think later 1960s is more likely: It was BDT in the mid-60s, exact date unknown: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53526390417 ...and I suspect the black period came after that. Then I think it spent a few years out of service before being reinstated in BYP for the last few years.

Progress continues on the Courtaulds wagons and the GNR van, but in the meantime a brief burst of winter sunshine encouraged me to take the photo plank and the corrugated wagons out into the sunshine. I think I should have taken the tripod as well, so I could use a longer exposure and smaller aperture, as F10 wasn't enough for the depth of field I wanted. But the sun's gone again now so I'm stuck with these!

@leslie10646, ebay is full of your products! Dapol GN wagon, £50 or £30: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275863223833 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/235833945108 Dapol East Downshire Steamship Co wagon, £40 or £50: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285295732353 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275863233638 Dapol John Milligan wagon, £40: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285295734748

I did a table of the liveries carried by the B101 class, based on photos I found online or in books: Obviously it's not complete as I couldn't find a photo of every loco in every year. Where there is a text entry in a cell that indicates a dated photo showing that livery on that loco. Cells coloured but empty are a reasonable assumption based on the same livery appearing in the years before and after. The blue boxes at the bottom represent the period when the locos were stopped. Some locos were repainted in 1974/75 while stopped, and never re-entered service. I expect there are some gaps that could be filled by photos I haven't found yet. There are lots of photos which aren't dated, or only to the nearest decade. They aren't shown here, unless they depict a livery not shown in any dated photos, in which case they're in the bottom row. It is possible that some photos are wrongly dated. Some findings, which probably aren't a surprise: Apart from the as-delivered silver livery in 1957/8, there was no subsequent year when the whole class carried the same livery. The general sequence was silver - green - black and deep tan - plain black - black and shallow tan - supertrain. Some locos had a pinstripe on the green, others didn't, 105 and 113 carried both variants with the pinstriped one being earlier. jhb171achill mentioned the unusual version of black and deep tan livery carried by the B101s, lacking the white cantrail stripe. This came between the green and the plain black periods, and was certainly carried by 103, 109, 110, 111, 112; 111 carried it when withdrawn. 113 and 114 carried a more conventional black and deep tan livery with white cantrail stripe. As far as I can tell, only 113 and 114 had yellow panels on the front, but both had previously . Some locos may have skipped some liveries. Can anyone surprise me with a variant I haven't yet found, or fill any gaps in the table?

Ah look, another rabbit-hole for me to dive into! That's a great photo and I had also been puzzling over the reference to conversions from H vans - this is clearly wrong for this batch and I suspect it was a copy and paste error somewhere. Scaling off the photo confirms the 11' wheelbase if they are 20' over headstocks. Pender&Richards (1967) list the original flats as: 25201-25435 Flat, built 1962, 12 ton capacity, 20'0" over headstocks, vacuum brake. 'Nos 25201-25435 are on a conventional-type underframe and are fully vacuum braked. A number are fitted with locating blocks to secure a load of three large Guinness tanks, loaded at the North Wall.' The 1975 WTT lists them as: 25201-25435 Flat, 12 tonne capacity, 7 tonnes tare I have recently acquired a 1978 WTT which doesn't appear to list them at all, nor do the 1985 or 1986 WTTs. Doyle&Hirsch 1978 and 1981 have a photo of 24558 and seem to list some of them as: 24516-24566 Ballast wagon, introduced 1973, 12 ton capacity, wheelbase 10', weight 5 tons 7 cwt, hand braked only, converted from covered wagons of 17222 series. There's a lot wrong in this listing, if they are indeed describing the same wagons. However, the listing in Doyle&Hirsch does tend to lump together different wagons types into groups so maybe some did fit that description and others didn't. Anyway, to the photos! Starting with those in the original number series. An IRRS photo from the 1960s showing 25208 and two others looking brand new: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511886625 In Ernie's photo dated 1964, here's one lurking in the dock at Killarney: Again from Ernie in 1964, one up north with a Guinness Tank: An IRRS photo showing 25277 loaded with a demountable dropside body in 1966: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508466241 And then in PW use, some in the 245xx series, some in the A series, and other unidentifiable: Here is jhb171achill's photo of 24565 in use at Portlaoise in 1977/8: An IRRS photo showing 24556 at Mullingar in 1986: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509438590 An IRRS photo showing one loaded with a diesel engine at Inchicore in 1970: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511310066 Here are three carrying PWD mess huts and renumbered as 176A, 572A, 578A in 1971: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511746480 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570644078 Wicklow, 1973, an unidentifiable example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569594857 That's all I've got.

jhb171achill did better than he remembered in recording these wagons - here's another one I found whilst delving in the catacombs (a wonderful thread!) This is at Heuston in 1977: 24419 is one of the batch converted from cattle wagons; some of these had dropsides and others were built without - this is one of the latter. The chassis is in grey livery with a tiny roundel on the solebar, but the end is red (with the number repeated on the end). Here's a much-magnified snippet of one of Paddy O'Brien's photos on the IRRS archive (linked in an earlier post) which shows the same type of wagon in the same livery. It also has the tiny roundel on the grey solebar, and the red end.

I'll add a few more links to photos that I've come across, showing Courtaulds wagons or similar. This photo from jhb171achill shows an NIR container dumped on wagon C406, which appears to be a former NCC Courtaulds wagon cut down to a flat. This wouldn't be suitable for carrying 20' containers in service because it isn't long enough. I think that in service the containers were normally carried on the chassis from NCC brown vans. Another photo from jhb171achill shows an unmodified wagon still surviving at Antrim in the 1970s: C202, of the ex-GNR type, and not painted bauxite despite the C number. Again from jhb171achill: The following are in the IRRS archive, only visible to IRRS members I'm afraid: C9 at Larne Harbour in 1973, NCC type, bauxite livery, not cut down: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511735225 C45 at York Rd in 1968, NCC type, bauxite livery, not cut down: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509198783 C11 and C20 at Coleraine in 1967, NCC type, bauxite livery, not cut down, loaded with coal: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509190156 One hiding behind a spoil wagon at York Road in 1967: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509509479

There were several variations of this front treatment on the 80s. The first batch had the white 'moustache' as shown. 89 was delivered from BREL fully painted and had a thinner moustache than the rest, which were painted by NIR. By 1976/77 they had all had the moustache trimmed so that it no longer wrapped round the corners, like this photo from Jonathan Allen on Flickr. 89's was trimmed too, but remained thin. The second batch was delivered with the diamonds and NIR logos. As far as I can tell, 69 was the only one to have carried the CityTrack logo on the cab front, though it was applied to the sides of many of the class. There was a lot of variation in the shape and size of the diamonds, this photo of 98 from Jonathan Allen on Flickr is quite different from your image of 69 above: There first batch were repainted in the late 70s / early 80s with diamonds replacing the moustaches; again there was a lot of variation in the size and shape of the diamond. Later repaints (including some of the second batch) had the ends of the diamond cropped off like your photo of 86, but some had a full diamond like this photo of 81 from Jonathan Allen on Flickr: So, when IRM get round to producing the iconic 80 class, there are plenty of livery variants to go at, even for the initial livery!

Were those Mk2 EGVs ever made in Supertrain livery? They often seem to come up on eBay in the later IR or IE schemes, or the one-off to match the 201s. The GN wagon is now up to £50 !!!

Many thanks for taking the photos and sharing them on Flickr!

I definitely had one of those Lima Mk1 composite coaches back in the 1980s. It's a genuine model, though not of a real prototype. Issued about the same time as the Class 33 painted as an A class (which I also had).

The van is now in the weathering stages, looks a bit piebald at present but be patient... Meanwhile, I have taken a step across the border for the next project. Here I am conducting some surgery - can you tell what it is yet? I am attempting the same conversion on two different kits of almost the same thing; the kits are Parkside PC25 and Cambrian C107. They both have their pros and cons - so far I think the Cambrian kit is a better representation of their intended prototype, but the Parkside kit is definitely easier to convert.