Mol_PMB

Sorry these are only good for IRRS members: https://flic.kr/p/2pwBo4C https://flic.kr/p/2pwDJsP https://flic.kr/p/2pwDJt5 https://flic.kr/p/2pwDPnT

You may have seen over on my other thread that I’ve been designing an etched ‘kit’ for an E401 class shunter in 4mm scale. I’ll document the build in this dedicated thread so that it’s self-contained and easier to find in future. I've chosen this prototype partly because I like them and there is no kit option presently available and partly because, with none surviving, I suspect they will be a less appealing prototype for IRM to make. They're not the prettiest locos either, but as the largest class of 5'3" gauge shunters in Ireland they played an important part in railway history. I've based my artwork on this official drawing, which is fairly well dimensioned and having checked them all it seems to be drawn to scale. I've also reviewed over 100 photos to work out the details not shown on the drawing, and where necessary I've scaled dimensions off the photos. So I can't claim perfection but the main dimensions are correct and we'll see in the test build whether it looks 'right'. I have designed this model for myself, it’s not intended as a commercial venture. However, I could also make the etches available to others who would like to build one. This thread could also act as a set of instructions and will give forum members an idea of what’s involved in the construction. I could also consider a 7mm scale version - I've already had one expression of interest in that and I quite fancy a big one myself. For starters, here's the etch artwork that I've sent off to be made. I should be receiving the trial etch early next week: This is just the bodywork and the 'functional' chassis will be a separate etch in a thicker material. There were 19 locos in the E401 class, built at Inchicore in 1957-1958. Most survived into the 1970s but only a handful beyond 1975, and the last one was withdrawn in 1979. The locos were all painted silver when new. From 1962, some received black and tan livery (without roundel); I think these were E402/403/405/406/412/415/419. Locos repainted from 1964 received black livery (with roundel) and this remained in use until the end. However, a few locos retained black and tan livery, and the regular Heuston pilot E402 was repainted in black and tan (with roundel) at some stage in the late 1960s and carried that livery until withdrawn in 1975. E412 also carried black and tan until at least 1975. They were primarily used around Inchicore / Heuston / North Wall, but some ventured further afield including E414 based in Cork for some time, E410 trialled at Fenit and on the CBSCR, and another on the Harcourt Street-Bray line. Latterly their main duties were North Wall to Islandbridge transfer freights, and Heuston pilots. On the challenging route from North Wall to Islandbridge, they were thrashed mercilessly and when the 400hp E class were finally replaced with 141s, the permitted train load was reduced for a loco with more than twice the power! The etch provides for several detail options to cover most of the class over their lifetime. The major visible variations are: Radiator side grilles (several variants) Small grille/panel below radiator grille on LHS (several variants) Removal of exhaust/silencer cowl on locos still in use in the mid-late 1970s Addition of emergency vacuum brake dump valve on cab backon locos still in use in the mid-late 1970s Having looked at a lot of photos of these locos and the E421s, I've come to the conclusion that there are hardly any common features between these two outwardly-similar classes. If this project works out well I could consider doing an E421 as a follow-up if it doesn't feature in IRM's plans. However, it would be almost starting from scratch rather than a few minor tweaks. Anyway, once the etch turns up next week, watch this space... Mol

Park Royal Coaches — Irish Railway Models https://irishrailwaymodels.com/en-gb/collections/park-royal-coaches

I think even on a Sunday there were more than two. But I do remember being on an RPSI Cork-Dublin railtour on a Sunday where we stopped on the up main at one station to take water, with the steam train blocking one line and the water hose across the other, for about an hour, and no other trains either way to worry about. I think I have a 1990 WTT but nothing newer.

Many thanks for the update.

I get the same. It’ll stop me ordering any more!

Photos from Ernie and Kevin Lane for comparison: How the E421 differs from the E401: 2 feet longer overall, mostly at the front The bonnet does not reach right to the front The battery boxes are mounted either side of the frames at the front The fuel tank doesn't reach so far forwards (to make way for the battery boxes) but is extended back further under the cab The bufferbeams are deeper and festooned with rivets The cab has different/bigger/more windows and I think it's a bit longer too The bonnet is lower, has a less curved top, and there is no exhaust/silencer cowl on top Many small details such as lights, grilles, handrails, water fillers are different. So although they are similar at first glance, there are very few bits of the etch artwork that would be suitable for both. However, the assembly concept could be re-used if it works well for the E401.

I haven't finalised the functional chassis yet, and it will have to be on a separate etch anyway as it will need thicker material. The wheel diameter and wheel spacing is the same for both classes, so the functional chassis could be the same. However, the E421 is 2 feet longer overall, and the proportions are different (to improve the weight distribution), so the footplate and cosmetic sideframes would be different. Also the bodywork is different. Let's see how the E401 works out. I could do an E421 version later if IRM don't beat me to it. I've just paid the invoice for the body etch; should be a week or so until it arrives. I'll start a new thread for the build.

Having shown some of the glucose containers in my previous post, here are two of the IRRS archive images showing them in the original white livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527507088 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511556515

A few more container photos to add to the thread. First from Roger Joanes on Flickr. Just to the left of the loco's smokebox in 1964 is a pre-ISO open box container, on a 25201 series 20' flat wagon: Possibly something similar in bright red livery on an 'LB' flat in the background of this IRRS photo also dated 1964: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251291181 This is a slightly later design of open container, ISO-compatible and suitable for palletised traffic. It seems to be in black livery with a roundel on the end, and carried on a 25436-series wagon: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511479228 From ML125R on Flickr, some interesting photos around North Wall around a decade later. This one is undated but probably late 1970s. A selection of CIE open-top coal containers on the left, and perhaps a CIE 40' insulated container in grubby white just to the right of the loco: Among the CIE and Bell containers, there are several Ellerman Lines boxes in this late 1970s view: This image is dated 1984 but looks a few years earlier to me. A fine array of CIE containers of many types and sizes, as well as a lot of CTI, and a couple of MOL. A couple of the 10' bulk glucose container here: From Colm O'Callaghan on Flickr, some later images of ISO containers including some interesting ones. CIE curtain-sided boxes on the left, and note the pair of Uniload 10' on an air-braked 60' flat just behind the loco: Two photos of the open-topped coal containers; there was a variety of types of these, the older ones being 8' high and the later ones 8'6". Some may have been conversions from normal dry boxes: Super shot of an acrylonitrile tank freshly painted in IR livery: One of the less common grey 10' containers just behind the loco here: From the IRRS archive, one of the early ISO CIE insulated containers: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570887180

The E401 body etch artwork is complete and I have sent it off to the etchers for a quote.

Most interesting. Some tin vans did have some other lettering, 'GUARD' on the door and the boiler vans had 'NOT TO BE ROUGH SHUNTED' on the ends, though the latter soon disappeared under the muck. Here's some nice views from Ernie: I have also found it difficult to find colour views that are clear enough to show the lettering colour, but I've definitely seen one photo clearly with red lettering - I just can't find it now! It would be nice to know which types of vehicle had the red lettering and which had the green.

Regarding styling, the leading coach here has a lot in common with the model shown above: Well I suppose we'll just have to wait for the next IRM 'big announcement' and then be either delighted or disappointed... I reckon that silver coach on the right would follow very nicely from the Park Royals - same bogies, chassis and interior.

I suppose you can't have too many drivers qualified on locos because there isn't enough loco work to maintain their competency. But it ought to be possible to have a few. I'd have thought that for the blue GMs could be in a competence category with the Enterprise GMs.

Call in the RPSI!

Possibly one of these? http://www.arcadiarail.co.uk/products/lenz/trains/locomotive/40152-01/kof-ii-diesel-locomotive--0-4-0-5720.html

Ah, comiserations on the extra charges! I really ought to finish off my little O gauge inglenook layout sometime. It's nearly there, just needs a few low-relief buildings and a couple more trees. At least if I make a big version of the E401 class etch, I'll have somewhere to test it.

You get a phone call? Luxury! I just got home to find a card through the door and a soggy, dented parcel lobbed over the side gate in the rain. The online tracking says it was delivered to a neighbour, but the card they put through the door said it was behind the gate, which was the unhappy truth. The loco survived the experience though.

E407 carries a CIE roundel, which means it can't be much earlier than 1964. So I think the photo date is correct.

I'm going to keep thinking about the chassis while I carry on with the body etch. The artwork for all the main parts is now done, just a few little details to do, and then I can finalise the etch layout and add all the tabs. There are some options for grilles, exhaust cowl and brake dump valve so that most of the class can be modelled throughout their life - until someone finds a picture that proves me wrong! There will be the following sub-assemblies: Bonnet sides and ends Bonnet top Footplate and cosmetic frames Cab sides, ends and control panel Cab roof The two bonnet sub-assemblies will be made separately but then soldered together. The cab roof will remain removable if desired. The footplate, cab and bonnet will all be held together by a bolt under the control panel in the front of the cab. There will also be bolts at each end of the footplate which will connect the functional chassis to the footplate and either the cab or bonnet above. My current thinking is that coupling mounts will be on the functional chassis. Three pics of the real thing from various angles and showing the three liveries carried, thanks to Ernie and Roger Joanes:

Very nice indeed! Superb rolling stock and layout atmosphere.

Many thanks! Looks like there's plenty of neat designs there, I'll have to see whether any are suitable for my needs or if I can just use some of the ideas. I've had a look at using one of High Level's more standard gearboxes, the RoadRunner, which is only 8.6mm wide. The final drive gear is 23 tooth, and it would be possible to create a geartrain directly from that to the second axle either with five gears 23-12-12-12-23 (purple). High Level don't offer gears bigger than 23 tooth, but other suppliers do. Replacing the three small ones with a 27 tooth in a straight line (red) would mesh fine, but the ground clearance would be zero with the 27-tooth gear, not ideal for a loco with suspension. Another option would be a 28 tooth gear mounted slightly higher (green) though the motor might have to be tipped further forward to suit. With this type of arrangement, I'd need to provide some form of non-rigid torque reaction for the motor that didn't mess with the suspension too much. Why is it so hard? I thought having no rods would make it easier than a D class... Maybe I should revert to the previous arrangement, make the leading axle rigid and just put the CSB on the other two axles.

The thin ones! And there's still not enough room in OO. 21mm is OK, but I want to design this to work for both gauges. Thanks for confirming. I'm not a fan of rigid chassis either! For a 6-wheel loco I need a more complex arrangement of compensation or springing, which is why the hornblocks and CSB method appeal. But I think that works best if all wheels are sprung.

Many thanks - I feared that would be the case. It definitely doesn’t fit for 00 gauge! I’ll have to find an alternative solution if this is to be buildable for OO with hornblocks. Maybe a rigid chassis would be sufficient for OO?

Thanks for the tip re NWSL. I have successfully used their products in the past, though I got the impression that their range isn't as big as it once was. Certainly last time I looked to re-order parts I'd had from them in the past, it seems they are no longer stocked. Anyway, here's a sketch I've worked up this evening. The wheels and 2mm axles are shown in black, the functional frame in dark grey and the cosmetic frame behind in grey: The idea is to use a QuaDriver 20mm wheelbase to power the two closely-spaced axles, with the 'tower' at the left-hand end wheelset and the arm connected to the middle wheelset. I can't find any actual dimensions for this unit, but from @Tullygrainey's photo (reproduced below) it looks like it should be fine. Then I'll have to create a custom equivalent of a Drivestretcher with five 20-tooth gears to connect to the third axle (sketched in blue above, I know they're not proper gear shapes but it's the PCD that matters and 4x8=32 so that works. Having done a lot of searching online I think I've found the key dimensions of the hornblocks, datum holes and CSB pivot heights. I've had to refer to several different websites and documents because I haven't yet found any one source that provides a complete dataset. I think the following are correct: Hornblock slot in frames is 5mm wide. Top of hornblock slot is 4mm above axle centreline. CSB pivot points are 3mm, 4mm or 5mm above the axle centreline. I've used 5mm in the sketch above. Small datum hole above hornblock slot is 5.2mm above the axle centreline (this is an estimate, but it's more than 5mm as on the images of the CSB jig it's fractionally above the 5mm row) I've then used one of the online CSB spreadsheets to work out where the pivot points ought to be if the wheels are to be equally loaded. A=18, B=11, C=24, D=16. Hopefully I've got this right - @Horsetan does this look plausible? I still need to work out the width between the frames. Again it's hard to find published dimensions for the width of the QuadDriver gearbox, but it looks like it might be a tight fit between the the thinner 'spacesaver' hornblocks for OO gauge. I fear it might not fit at all. The thinner hornblocks are nominally 2.2mm wide, so with OO back-to-back being 14.5mm that leaves only 10.1mm for the gearbox as well as any clearance needed. The gearbox looks wider than 10mm! @Tullygrainey, is yours accessible to measure the width of the QuadDriver gearbox? For once, 21mm gauge is easier in this case, but I need to make my solution work for both gauges. This is becoming a headache!