jhb171achill

Remember those old pre-Murphy 121s? Anyone got the bits and pieces for the cab and body? No chassis needed. Scrap bits welcome.

FOR SALE I am assisting a friend with a house clearance, and among it is a quantity of stuff that the deceased had acquired - I guess in the 1980s - with a view to making a layout. I told the widow I would ask about to see who's interested. There are some 38 yards of unused track, still in a box labelled "W & H Models, London", plus a "Zero One" control system. I suggested to her that she might get €60 for the lot. Thus; it's on offer as such. PM me if interested.

Notch nine and sixteen fifteenths!

Can't wait to get mine! Absolutely top notch!

Standard open wagons, I think, with tarpaulins.

It wasn’t QUITE that bad!!

One of Fry's slides is so bad it shows a purple - yes, you heard - "A" class with a lifting train approaching Naas in a cutting, with blue and purple grass on its sides, and browny purple rails and ballast. Since the sky is a mauve colour, I am thinking there may still be operational "A"s on Mars........

Drew, an excellent and informative post. As one involved in the displays and the Fry history end of things (not the layout) I appreciate your comments on behalf of the museum. I will pass your comments on to the management tomorrow when I am contact with them over other issues. To comment on some of the points you raise: Why did the castle layout close? Answer - the operators wanted the space for the new Avoca shop and cafe. They were faced with having to make the whole Castle operation viable - and model railway museums cost money rather than generate it. The Avoca shop helps them balance their budget which they are under pressure to do - it's public money they'd be using up otherwise, and Fingal Council quite simply do not have a budget for such things. The Castle layout contained some of the Fry models in glass cases, but the ones operating on the huge layout were not made by Fry - they were made 20 years after his death by some 7 modellers (so far identified); some still with us, others not. Under the term of the 1972 legal agreement between Fry's widow and any future owner of his collection, his models were never again to be run, but displayed in a museum-like scenario. You mention the size of the layout in the casino now. The current architectural plan for this building was drawn up (a) to fit a certain budget, and (b) BEFORE any serious effort was made to seek help or advice from experts in this field; when the project eventually came to the attention of potential layout builders, they pointed out that there would only be room for an 00 gauge layout in that building, as it was far too small for a meaningful 0 gauge layout. I was at the meeting where it was pointed out to the architects, designers and county council officials that there was not a snowball's chance in hell of recreating anything remotely similar to what used to be in the Castle! To top all that, the local authority and architects had a completely unrealistic take on how long the layout would take to build; but that's all water under the bridge now. Your point about signage on each of the four sides of the layout explaining the history is an excellent idea, and it is one which I will take on board. You can expect to see signage to this effect. Thank you for this excellent suggestion. Regarding the display screens at the Malahide side of the layout, you're right about the lack of space there, but it's the best that can be done at the moment. Again, those screens need to be updated, and the written history that shows up for each item in it is on my (LONG!) list of "to-do" things. In the long run I will expand on the descriptions and see if I can persuade them to move one of these screens to another wall; I have an idea where one could go. Again, thank you for the feedback. The stuff in the shop is in its infancy. There will be a change of operational management at the end of the year, and the incoming personages - whoever they may be - will be taking a look at the retail end. Recently, a range of mugs, keyrings and other materials with pictures of a variety of models has been commissioned. A certain amount of railway books may appear in the long run. As for scale models, there are viability issues here, given the small number of items - but I do know that an arrangement with a supplier is currently being explored. Thank you again for your comments - feedback like this is absolutely invaluable. I should also add that all of Fry's Irish models are now on display; in the old place only some were. He also made a number of English and mainland European models. All but (I think) one of the continental items are on display in one case (there were only a few), but the British stuff (mostly LMS & LNWR) remains at present in storage. It is hoped that in the long run a budget may be made available for displaying these in glass cases too. There are about 50 or 60 of them from memory.

Yes, that’s exactly what it is.

Could be - further research needed on THAT one! Like I mentioned before - COULD be the colour slide. There is absolutely no mention that I am aware of in IRRS journals of a 101 in the dark green, but even the IRRS Journal (the "paper of record"?) had the odd error or omission in it.

Now THAT is interesting; first I can recall seeing with a waistline. But note also: the DARK green - I think! I certainly did not think that ANY of those got the dark green. One for IRM Towers' Research Dept. for the RTR B101 released next month! Now THAT is interesting; first I can recall seeing with a waistline. But note also: the DARK green - I think! I certainly did not think that ANY of those got the dark green. One for IRM Towers' Research Dept. for the RTR B101 released next month! AND no red buffer beam..........experimental, I wonder?

Just to show the green…. I know I’ve posted before….. Dark and post-1955 light I might add - while the “A” & “C” classes might or might not have the waist lining, I don’t think any B101s did.

No, never yellow, nor white - always the light green “eau-de-nil”. Photo reproduction often shows it to look faded or even whitish, but in real life the livery was only for five years and they never got the chance to fade. Silverfox models seem to use a whitish colour on the green, or black numerals on the silver - both are wrong. Some locos in the above livery had this waistline light green band, others didn’t. Same, exactly, as in the 1960s some black locos had yellow panels and others didn’t. And in the 1990s some engines had dayglo panels and others didn’t. But these waistlines, plus “snails”, plus numbers, were always “eau-de-nil” only, on either silver or green locos.

Absolutely superb! Every detail totally realistic!

Those type of things crop up on fleabay from time to time; the going rate now seems to be the best part of €300 a throw!

The lighter CIE green, like GNR loco blue or CIE 1980s orange, seems to be unusually susceptible to looking different with different film emulsions, hence the oft-trotted-out myth that there were a million shades and "anything goes". Nothing beats the critical eye of an artistically-aware eyewitness; of whom few now exist in relation to CIE green! Personally, I recall the dark green well, both on buses, on Maedb in Cultra, and on the background of the very CIE "snail" which you see to the left as my avatar; this hung in our hall when I was a child - in fact for all of my life, and I saw it daily in all types of light until the early 2000s. It's now in "Headhunter's" Enniskillen Railway Museum. As for the lighter green, I do remember that, though nothing like as well, as I wasn't often on or about the CIE railways until the later 1960s. Going through Cyril Fry's colour slides, you could be forgiven for thinking that some CIE green vehicles were light greenish blue, and others almost black, as he seems to have used the cheapest and nastiest colour film - in marked contrast to his model making!

Actually, that raises an interesting (and convenient for modellers!) livery detail. In the very late 50s, possibly as a result of surplus dark green paint when the lighter colour appeared, some secondary stock especially in West Cork, plus on the west Clare section, was turned out in plain unlined dark green, exactly as per those models. On the West Clare they didn't even have a "snail", but on the 5'3" they tended to have either one or two snails, plus the number. This didn't last - none of the vehicles thus adorned (and there weren't many) seemed to make it beyond 1961 or so. Secondary stock on the GSR also went unlined after 1933 or so, as did NCC stock after about 1940 and possibly before.

They look quite neat! Easy to reverse the "snails" at each end to be the right way round - they'd hardly cut the mustard behind a high-class "A", but a very nice little "2-ft-rule" train all the same. Someone on here, a few years ago, made a very nice 6-wheeler or short bogie by putting two of those 4-wheelers together.....

What’s badly needed, indeed essential, for running with As is the tin van. Plus a GSWR 1910-20 period bogie; many of these lasted into black’n’tan days with final examples lasting until 1974.

Now THOSE in CIE livery are EXACTLY what a green or silver “A” needs behind it!

I was due to take a run in this thing when I was there in 1979, but it wouldn't start! PURE Donegal! I can't remember now, but I think it had a Gardner engine too....

Indeed - and on the silver ones, the light green numerals often wore off entirely, leaving less weathered silver paint underneath, which on a very dirty engine gave the impression of a light-coloured style of numeral. Similarly, the light green paint on the steel "snails" attached to the sides of "A"'s often wore, leaving bare metal - if it didn't do that, it faded. There's actually a whole topic around what weathering DID to locos and carriages - wagon paint rusting up on the metal bits, and bleaching on the timber bits....GNR loco domes (and Donegal ones) appearing to be black instead of blue or red (same with green CIE locos), carriage roofs painted pale "lead" grey turning black, and so on. Often, those who did not witness such things will get the impression that the GNR had fifty shades of blue, CIE had fifty shades of green and the CDR had maybe forty shades of red. Equally, and more recently, that in the 1960s there were fifty shades of CIE loco and coach "tan" / "golden brown" / "orange". In almost all cases, it is fading and weathering, not different paint - plus differing levels of deterioration on old colour slides and prints. Railway companies were an early example of taking a pride in their uniform corporate image and went to great lengths to match paints accurately. A friend of jhbSenior's, who died about ten years ago, was the "paint chemist" in Dundalk Works, employed for this purpose.

Around 1964/5, you could have had SIX variants together - just about. The silver livery was first in 1955. By 1958 they were being repainted green (lighter; the very few dark variants were a little later). However, some remained silver - albeit so utterly filthy you really could barely tell what colour they were - until c.1965; then going directly to black, skipping the green. So, first of all, you've a few silver alongside mostly green 1958-c.64/5. A couple get the dark green about 1960-ish - I'd have to check. Black appears in late 1962, with full height tan sides; not wearing well, and all-black variant appears during 1963 - and some with yellow panels c.1963/4. So, if you stick the timescale of your layout to be preserved in aspic in 1964, let's say; you have: 1. Silver - very badly decomposed and about to be repainted 2. Green - lighter 3. Green - darker (just a couple of them) 4. Black with high tan sides 5. Black 6. Black with yellow end panels. By the late 1960s, the three black variants are the only show in town. Once re-engined, low tan side bands were the norm but a few had high tan sides, including preserved A39. "Supertrain" livery in 1972 became standard for all until 1987, when the "tippex" lines were gradually added. Who said the 1990s were interesting, again?

As mentioned there were two shades, though the vast majority only had the lighter shade. It wouldn’t have been quite “appley”, nor, of course mint; the samples seen here look ok to me, I have to say… As for the black……. The green one will need a rolled up Independent in the cab with a headline about President Kennedy being shot!

That’s a truly outstanding job, well done!