jhb171achill

Correct, that’s what it would be. When at sea, salt spray would wear away at it. Or - grubbied white.

Where I got him was: <dave@hattons.co.uk> The first Cravens came out in 1963, but they were not to be seen on secondary services for a decade after that at least. There were several old GSWR six-wheeled full brakes, plus quite a few old wooden bogies which made it into the black'n'tan livery. Not a single PASSENGER-carrying six-wheeler was ever painted anything beyond green. The last two six-wheelers withdrawn from traffic were 69 and another one, whose number escapes me. No. 69 ended up with a gangway connection - an exceptionally rare thing for ANY six-wheeler back in the day, though the GSWR had a VERY small number. This was apparently 1968 when they were last used, but one might have been still technically on the books a bit later - I'd have to check. Some of the wooden bogies though, lasted on Dublin & Cork peak-hour services until 1974, including some non-corridor ones. Six-wheel no. 69 is now at Downpatrick, part-restored. So, what did these last six-wheelers DO? It seems that one was a regular on the Galway Mail. This would have seen it rubbing shoulders with bogie mail vans, "tin vans" (of course) and the various types of laminate coaches MOSTLY - an odd Craven, Bredin, corridor wooden bogie or Park Royal. It is likely that the last few might also have rubbed shoulders with a new Craven on the Sligo or Cork lines. That said, I don't personally recall too many Cravens on the Sligo line back then - but it could not, of course, be ruled out. They would not however be seen with a whole long sleek SET of Cravens. The Cravens were mixed up within the hotch-potch family of all the other types of coaches.

Yes, there were many in West Cork towards the end (and indeed, ALWAYS!). However: 1. From the 1950s onwards, for the record most were Midland Great Western in origin - totally different design to Hatton's ones. Should such a thing ever become financially viable, perhaps with very much lower production runs possible with future new technology, they are a very obvious gap in Irish models. 2. There probably WERE a few GSWR from time to time too, thus Hatton's yokes would be suitable. 3. The pic above is of a set of GSWR short-length bogies which were drafted into the West Cork system in the late 50s to replace earlier CBSCR ones which were totally knackered by then. These GSWR ones - you can see - bear a clear resemblance to the Hattons bodysides - HOWEVER, the ones in the pic are all bogie vehicles! The reason they had to have 48ft bogie coaches on the system (and I think, latterly, there were six), was the sharp curves on the Courtmac branch, for the summer excursions. They didn't turn a wheel otherwise by the time this picture was taken. 4. In AEC railcar sets - six-wheelers very occasionally ran singly, tagged onto the end, but not IN the set, as they were non-corridor. The Harcourt St. line saw this practice too, and even on the last day on that line, a MGWR 6-wheeler is seen tagged onto the back of an AEC set leaving H. St.; it is a MGWR one. I was speaking with one of our highly-respected model manufacturers this evening and he offered some advice, along the lines that even if Hattons did a single vehicle in a CIE livery, a string of them would work with a "tin van" at the end. This is very true, and adds to the comments made before about whether a full brake or brake third would be a good idea. Of course, a suitable old wooden non-corridor BOGIE brake third would be another suitable option. Hard for our young'uns to take in, I know, but there was no such thing as a train of an identical type of coach, be they bogie OR six-wheeled; a mixture would be far more realistic. I have one of those old Triang GWR clerestorey-roofed brake thirds for such a purpose. Clerestorey whipped off and replaced with a flatter roof, and you've got one of a pair of WLWR Brake 3rds which were scrapped in 1955. Can't remember numbers - I'm in the middle of a house move and all me stuff is packed up - but it's an OK approximation under the "2-ft rule terms and conditions" (1 compartment too many!). That would do behind six wheelers. If anyone wants to model earlier CIE days, no tin vans obviously, but from my observations, there would appear to more interest among CIE modellers in the late 50s than early 50s; this allows A, C, G601, E401 and B101 class diesels as well a steam. It also allows the two green liveries plus the "silver", whereas if one was fixated in 1953, for example, it's (a) all steam, and (b) only one carriage livery. However, when I entered into correspondence with Hattons, I was told that they've already had "a lot of interest" from Ireland - so some of us have seen the potential straight away.... Their design team, as I understand, is currently considering what liveries beyond what they've already offered might be viable for them too. For the British enthusiasts, they've already dreamed up an eye-watering amount of possibilities.

The roofs..... originally all the same dark blue as on sides, but gradually they became white. When grubby, obviously it would not be pristine white. If you’re modelling 1970s, dark blue. While I’m no expert on containers, I’m unaware of them ever being grey-topped; perhaps someone else might know?

And, as often the case with these workings, two borrowed GNR non-corridor bogie thirds!

Very good points, Ironroad. If we go back to GSR times, more gas lighting - though not all. Having said that, I think you’re spot on regarding the viability of a whole lot of variants. 1. Both brake thirds and full brakes were in fact equally common. If he did the FULL brake, he could include black’n’tan, as four of these were still kicking about in the 60s - as far as I can ascertain, two of them were in use until 1968, thus for a very short time could be seen in the Galway mail train with a train which included Cravens! Thus, if there was an advantage of some of the batch being like this, we’ll and good. 2. Lower footboard - yes, on almost all varieties, in all circumstances. 3. Mansell wheels would be best, indeed. A few old relics in West Cork had SPOKED wheels, but not of this design! Three-hole otherwise. 4. Roof furniture - mostly electric in CIE times. I can’t be certain, but done acetylene; I had a list somewhere at one stage but I’m not sure if I still have it. 5. In CIE dark green or light green, roof details, foot boards and the like much the same. There were few if any alterations done to these carriages in their last years, bar the substitution of aluminium sheet for some rotten panels, sometimes simplifying beading and panelling as a result. However this latter applied almost totally to ex-MGWR stock, so it’s irrelevant to these ones as they were a completely different design. 6. Running numbers - I have lusts which can give them chapter & verse on this, but numbers were all over the place. You could get a single type of vehicle which had numbers like 6, 23, 56-78, 119, 214-7, and 1009-1021! I think your point about brake 3rd -v- full brake is worth passing on in case it makes the idea more viable, though obviously for all of us, the more variants the better!

Is the lady leaning out of the staff area? If so, she looks uncannily like my mother, who briefly worked the dining cars on that route in the very early 50s......!!

I suggested two variants - lined dark CIE green plus the lighter 1955-63 version, on the four six-wheelers. Obviously, the four wheelers wouldn’t count for Ireland. Since these things resemble some GSWR designs, but aren’t remotely like NCC, BCDR, GNR, DSER, MGWR or West Cork designs, I didn’t go into those variants - although they ARE generic. So I suggested that if economics required something more, just GSR maroon.

Hard to believe now, but those of us “of an age” will well remember being kippered with cigarette smoke after even a quite short journey on ANY train or bus!

True, but very limited use - there were only two of 'em, and one didn't even last that long.... and both spent their entire lives, bar a trial run or two, pushing trucks about Belfast Docks and York Road station......

I'm absolutely with you on that! Each to their own, of course, but as you'll have gathered here, that sort of detail (plus livery accuracy for relevant items / period) would by my version of it..... There is, of course, preservation. I am aware of several layouts based in modern times (e.g. Tara Junction) where RPSI specials with heritage diesels crop up now and again, or steam engines. Mayner's recent survey included an option for a model of 171 - outside most modeller's time period when in GNR use, but appropriate for modern image with a few preserved RPSI carriages behind it. Very many thanks, much appreciated. I will pass your comments on to Barry as well.

Of the wooden-planked variety, probably mid or late 1970s. However, it's your layout!

Yes, very much so. In West Cork it would be a "Bandon Tank". Naturally, in early diesel days a cattle special would most likely be an "A" class. I was told a story once - might have been Bob Clements but I've forgotten - of a special to Ballinasloe from somewhere down the GSWR branch - Portarlington maybe, or Port Laoise direction. Athlone was to supply loco and crew. This is in the early 1940s, and with the Achill branch closed, a couple of the light 4.4.0 "Achill Bogies" (D16) had been transferred in there. Anyway, Athlone had nothing but a hapless D16 for this job. It could barely move the train, and once it got it going, could hardly stop it from even the very sedate pace which was all the loco could persuade it to move at. Highly descriptive language was uttered by many that day, and a local instruction was issued to the effect that under NO circumstances was one of these ever to be used on a special again.......

Didn't know about the North Wall one! I suppose the one that was kicking about for YEARS in Inchicore is probably gone too by now?

A few of us have seen this project with great interest. I contacted them to enquire about a run of CIE-liveried ones and got a very positive reply. These things are being produced in a number of British liveries, but while BCDR, DSER, CBSCR, MGWR and GNR six-wheelers had nothing remotely similar running in Britain which could be repainted, the GSWR - conveniently our largest company - DID have a couple of designs which bore a reasonable ("2-ft rule") resemblance to these Hattons things. Thus, a CIE-liveried one, along with the SSM and Worsley kits, would fill a VERY large hole in Irish railway modelling - the bog-standard six-wheeler, to be seen EVERYWHERE into the early 1960s. If anyone else is interested in expressing support for any sort of Irish run of them, this is the man to contact: Dave Mylett Exclusive Commissions Manager Hattons Model Railways Ltd 17 Montague Road Widnes Cheshire WA8 8FZ 0151 733 3655 www.hattons.co.uk

A UTA "Jeep" is essential! I would take two.........even though they're not my favourite locos by far, and my model world is deep south CIE!

I'm only seeing this now.... The SLNCR had two ex-DNGR six-wheelers - of their ORIGINAL stock, which I think may have had straight sides, unless I'm mixing it up with something else. They did purchase a few six-wheelers from the GNR - never bogies - but they did at one time HIRE a couple of GNR bogies for quite a while - possibly several years. Exact details didn't survive. From time to time, the impression may have been given that they got more GNR coaches than they did, because if they were expecting a lot of people (pilgrimage specials being one major source of passengers but only a few times a year), they would simply borrow some for the day. I believe that these were often secondary stock stored at Clones - again, usually six-wheelers. I don't believe any GNR (or any other) corridor coaches ever traversed the line, let alone, of course, any catering vehicle. The GSR or CIE would occasionally lend them coaches too. In one of C P Friel's books an excursion may be seen entering Enniskillen with two green CIE-liveried Midland six-wheelers in the train makeup - thus CIE green and "flying snails" were seen in Enniskillen; the latter not only on good wagons.

Have a look at this; a good basis for anything West Cork. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums/72157704311359882/page1

Ernie Shepherd's book will give track diagrams, albeit drawn in a manner not easy to read. You're in a good position having NO rolling stock, as almost nothing you might have bought would be close to what's needed! In terms of radius, the wider the better. Sometimes space necessitates curves WAY sharper than they ever would be in real life, but we all have to work with what space we have. So, what space is available will dictate anything you do next. Will you want your layout to be a continuous circuit, or end-to-end? A "C" class is as essential to a West Cork layout of any sort as a 141 or 071 is to a 1980s one. In short, without it the whole thing is unrealistic from the start. Thus, the next question is to what degree of actual authenticity do you want to build it? If your bar is high, it's scratchbuilding virtually every item of rolling stock - there are a few kits, but not many. Among the kits: Studio Scale Models do an ex-Midland "E" (or J26) class 0.6.0T tank engine - a couple of these worked on the West Cork system in the early to mid 1950s. There's also a kit of a CBSCR "C2" class 4.6.0T "Bandon Tank". Leslie McAllister's ("Provincial Wagons") GSWR guards van - needed on ends of goods trains. Obviously, there were never any fitted goods trains! Leslie's goods vans - the old GNR one and above all the standard CIE "H" van - easy kits, and inexpensive. Then, Leslie's cattle trucks, CIE type - in this case, not GNR types. Then, a few repainted Hornby open wagons, but for sugar beet, the standard corrugated open wagons CIE used for decades. By now, you've a good selection of Irish goods stock. You needn't worry too much about flat wagons or tank wagons, and no bogie wagons of any sort. And, by now, Leslie owes me a pint of two! British (Hornby OR Bachmann) cattle trucks aren't remotely like anything that ran here, but if budgets are limited, get a load of those with shorter wheelbases. Studio Scale Models (SSM) in Ennis do a nice CIE brake van - brass kit. So, you've locomotives and wagons. Carriages, however, are the problem. If you are pre-1950, you're goiung to need six wheelers, all of different types, with only one or two 35-45ft bogies of particularly antiquated design. Longer, more modern coaches didn't work in West Cork much, and the smaller branch lines couldn't take them anyway. So, laminates or Park Royals were rarities, and only to be seen on the main line in ones or twos amongst the elderly 6-wheelers. Several OLD bogie coaches were used though - there was one old GSWR side-corridor composite and at least two ex-MGWR bogies, though one, I think was gone in the early 50s. All of these you'd have to build from scratch - though SSM do some GSWR six-wheelers as brass kits, which would do. There's nothing British which is close to what ran there, as in "quick Hornby repaint", if you crave accuracy - but if not, the "2-ft rule", or "Rule No. 1" ("It's MY railway!) will certainly allow the likes of the GWR Ratio kits in shabby CIE green, perhaps. SSM, again, do kits of several GSR "Bredin" types. Several of these ran on the main line, but not the branches. If your layout is meant to represent the GSR era, it's all steam and six-wheelers. If you're into the '50s, and with a "C" class this seems a "given", you will need six-wheelers (plus the obligatory "tin van"; see JM Design's forthcoming re-release of these; Silverfox do a version too). If you are doing a main line station, by the "C" class era, all passenger trains on the main line were operated by an AEC railcar set, usually running as a 3-piece, but occasionally 2. This absolutely essential piece of kit has thus far eluded kit-makers as well as ready-to-run - but it is as totally critical to a 1950s CIE layout as an ICR is to a post 2010 layout. In the absence of such a thing, Silverfox do an amended British railcar which (for the 2-ft rule) is a passingly acceptable version. A 2-car will suffice; maybe put one of SSM's "Bredins" or "laminate" coaches in as a centre car, too. I hope that all assists with choosing stuff. Liveries - easy. Steam engines all FILTHY very dark grey, no matter what they are. No lined green ones ran down here! Wagons - all grey, full stop. The yellow and black stripes on guard's vans weren't invented until about 1963/4, and nothing brown until 1970/1. No cement bubbles - these didn't appear until several years after the lines all closed. Carriages: all green; three variations. (a) Dark CIE green with lining, (b) mid-green from 1955 on, and (c) secondary stock in the form of at least two prehistoric old bogies coaches were, in later days, painted the older dark green but with no lining. The "tin vans" are an essential part of the scene on ALL passenger trains bar the railcar, but sometimes tagged onto the end of a set to carry parcels. These were unpainted, and thus a complete coat of nondescript weathering is all you need. The "C"'s were unpainted at first, and got into an appalling state of filth - again, a nondescript greyish coat of gunk is the livery; see photos! The later "C"s entered traffic in the green, tough; they didn't end up too clean either! Now, if you look at that pic posted above, you have the "perfect" Wisht Caaark train. 1. Dirty green "C" class 2. "Silver"(!) passenger brake van ("tin van"). This thing looks brown, but it is...SILVER! See the filthy state? In reality, a 1050s layout needs weathering and dirt to actually look authentic, as much as it does any livery. 3. The old GSWR bogie coach, regularly on this line. This is in the same green as the locomotive, but badly faded. Most branch trains in West Cork were this; a tin van for the guard and parcels, and one coach. 4. The wagons. The first and third are standard "H" vans, with a quite new corrugated open in between. It's only clean because they were building these things NEW at the time! 5. Then you've a couple of cattle trucks and covered van, followed by a couple of open wagons. 6. Then two reasonably clean "H" vans - probably quite new - these showing the correct shade of grey for wagons - ALL wagons; the OTHERS are all this colour too, just FILTHY! 7. The guard's van is a standard CIE 20T - as mentioned above, you'll notice no yellow and black stripes at this stage. Hopefully all of the above is of some interest. With kits, you'll get all of the above bar the carriage, and sure you can get some sort of oul crate of a coach to suit! For contrast, get the Silverfox two-coach railcar, perhaps? CIE green, of course; the black'n'tan livery only ever appeared on the entire West Cork system in the form of a "C" hauling the demolition train several years after it all closed. A nice "might-have-been", though; had it survived, you would be doubtless be jolting along in a 2600 to Skibbereen today, as IE and the Minister for Transport worked hard and diligently late into the night to try to dream up ways to close it, build a housing estate over its terminus asap, and hand the rest over to the Lycra Cycle Mafia (the LCM - a proscribed organisation) with indecent haste..... Maybe it was better going in 1961!

You need to be wary of Maureens. I've one too, and railway stuff is banished to small corners under executive orders from that source.......

It will have, Rob - though in an attic..... There's about 15ft square to play with. But for how long can I manage the steps? Need to get it all done pronto pronto; the clock ticks onward!

Depending on how many shekels I have left after a house move in two days' time, it is certainly something which would interest me. Having said that, it's worth remembering that our lovely friends in taxation will add €120 to it, for sending it here from Noo Zealand........ Maybe as a special treat, but I have indicated willingness in the survey. As John says, an investment.

Indeed - Barry is now on the Journal’s editorial committee..... Join the IRRS, folks! Each journal has interesting photos and articles, as well as current news, not that there’s much of THAT compared with times past!

Same basic design, but the later ones were like the pic. Mayner’s model is if the earlier builds. All ran, of course, as a common fleet. The last time I personally saw a timber-planked one in use was possibly about 1972, but since a few anyway survived to get the brown paint, they might have been in traffic to possibly ‘74/5.

That's the Tardis. The Dr. was driving the 15:10 Cullybackey - Wellington Bridge Bulk Turnip train that day............. How about two horseboxes and a black'n'tan loco at Limerick Junction! Was perusing that pic the other day chez Carse........