jhb171achill

Maybe the IRM lads need to put a 50p in the meter.....

Not QUITE as heavy as the "Green Bible", but it won't go in your jacket pocket!

Any time I log in here, the website will open up OK - but when I click on a link, or a reply to a post, it takes forever to open it up, sometimes timing out. Other websites work OK speed-wise. Does anyone else have this problem with the IRM website, and what can be done about it?

OK, now I've read it. Took a few days! LOCOMOTIVES OF THE GREAT SOUTHERN & WESTERN RAILWAY by Jeremy Clements, Michael McMahon and Alan O'Rourke (Collon Publishing, Collon, Co. Louth) As would be expected, given the previous works of all three authors, this work promised to leave absolutely no stone unturned in terms of research, attention to detail, and the covering of all aspects of any issues which might have had several different research sources. At the start, in keeping with this thoroughness, the authors point out that not all records have survived, and thus given the passage of time, some small gaps are inevitable in the information covered. Nevertheless, the content is very detailed, as one would expect for a work which draws heavily on the copious notes of the late R N Clements, arguably Ireland's greatest ever expert on Irish steam traction. Many of us will be familiar with the "Big Green Book", or "GSR Bible", and this book is set out in much the same way. The authors refer in the introduction to the necessity to have a standard way of notation for all locomotive classes, given the bewildering array of styles used by the GSR, the GSWR of the immediately preceding era, and earlier GSWR notations. R N Clements' own system based on Roman numerals is included - once one takes the time to get one's head round Bob Clements' logic, it all falls into place. Many of the locomotive classes covered are obscure one-offs, but the efforts made to standardise some practices and components is well covered, as is the relationship between the early component companies of the GSWR, with their differing localised traction requirements. Naturally, the acquisition of the Waterford, Limerick & Western Railway by the GSWR in 1901, and the attendant absorbtion of its own locomotive fleet is well covered. Illustrations are many and varied, all in black and white bar one on the title page, which is worthy of note in itself; it shows a large scale model locomotive (now in the headquarters of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in London), which is the only known example of exact GSWR green paint, and the lining style used from about 1870 or so to the mid or late 1870s. This was used as a model to glean details for the accurate livery now portrayed on GSWR No. 90 at Downpatrick. Of interest to many is the complex story of the evolution, development, and later improvements, alterations and rebuilds of many classes of locomotive, as these were many and varied. I was personally very interested in the information relating in this regard to the J15s, probably the most versatile Irish locomotive ever - it's no coincidence that many of these which dated back to the 1870s managed to survive until the end of steam traction in 1963. This is, overall, a reference work of the very highest quality, like its predecessor. It will be the standard academic work on the complex, and fascinating, locomotive history of this, Ireland's biggest pre-1925 railway company. If I was to have any criticism, and it's a tiny one, it might be that a slightly more complex index be included - but in the grand scheme of things, this is a small detail. This book is an absolute must to any student of Irish railways, and is released at a time when interest in the pre-diesel era in Ireland is, thankfully, rapidly growing. If you haven't bought it, buy it! It isn't the cheapest book you'll ever buy, but the quality and depth of the information between its covers makes it absolutely worth every red cent. Congratulations to all three authors!

No, indeed! If you mean the pic above, with the viaduct in the background, the loco and wagon are not on a former railway premises - the viaduct is actually the closest place that ever had rails! Carlow had one - that's the one at Whitehead. Thurles had two. I believe Mallow had two, and Tuam had at least one. So that's six at least. There had been ten steam engines - a vertical-boilered yoke at Carlow, plus the nine locos of the type at Downpatrick, so six diesels, plus the occasional borrowed "G" class from CIE, would be a reasonable equivalent.

That's actually true!

Ah! OK

Is warehouse collection possible? Or mail order better?

No, no four wheelers. For modellers of the pre-1960 period, and indeed the pre-1950 or 1940 period, it’s important to remember one very fundamental difference between Irish and British coach design. The long-wheelbase 24ft to 30ft four-wheelers which ran on MANY British lines, and advertised both above AND by Hattons, were ENTIRELY absent in Ireland. Also, WE may have kept six-wheelers in traffic longer than Britain, but we disposed of OUR four-wheelers, which were of a very much shorter wheelbase (about 20ft), LONG before Britain. Never plentiful in number anyway, the vast majority disappeared by the 1890s, though the MGWR appear to have been using one, and possibly two, as late as the mid 1920s. So none of either the above, nor Hattons FOUR wheelers are remotely suitable for anything Irish. But the 6-wheelers of both have more than an acceptable resemblance to several GSWR types. Not GNR, not NCC, not MGWR, not BCDR, though. The good news is that some stock of this type lasted on CIE until 1963, and a small few of the full brake types only (not passenger carrying ones) made it into black’n’tan livery, largely on Galway mail trains, until 1966/8.

There was a third livery too, with pale yellow lining! Next book will have pics....

Yes, and with model 071s, soon joined by A class locos - and Leslie’s corrugated open wagons, SSM or JM design guards vans, a whole model of a beet factory is now possible! Now THERE’S a shunting layout!!!

Now THAT would be a find.....

No, that’s a well wagon. Different beast entirely. Very important to make the distinction between a WELL wagon, as shown above with equipment on it; and BOLSTER wagons, which were flat wagons. Neither were common and neither were used much. In particular a well wagon would almost never be in any sort of routine traffic; such vehicles were mostly used in maintenance.

That's EXACTLY what I mean! Disgraceful "stewardship" of railway "heritage" by IE. There's a thing called "bunchlo". Seems closest to me. There appears to be nothing that truly is VERY close to it.

It would seem around the time it was actually taken out of "trial" "service"....! It also appears to have been repainted in a dullish shade of green instead of what originally looked like a greeny-grey colour. Possibly they were preparing it for service but the traffic department had other ideas. It worked a trial goods train as well, I believe, but I can't place the details.

No, that’s a well wagon. Different beast entirely.

Whew! Thought it might have been "preserved" in - a bar in Manhattan or Chicago..............

Here we go: Nice TYPICAL rural Irish 1970s train too. Two laminates - of different types - (three on some lines e.g. Limerick - Waterford) and a hot water bottle. GSR enamel bilingual sign (on BOTH platforms) too. Wonder what happened them - could they have ended up in a bar in Noo Yawk?

Re. the GSWR bolster: Check out (online) the Father Browne collection - there's a pic of it at 11.90.25, though how to isolate that one out of 75000 images is beyond me!

What size is it? Hard to tell from original photo in which it looked too small to be a level crossing lamp. With the red lenses, which weren't visible in the first pic, that definitely tends to tie it to some sort of "open / shut" access idea - a level crossing being obvious if it IS railway related. Is it big enough, though?

Had a yarn with Barry - those pics shown above that we had in the book are actually his best ones of that shed, he says - actually, I think they're adequate for the model?

Wonder where that large pic of a 111 went to! Very "officey" looking - reminds me of my former employment life.......good riddance!

These wagons were indeed uncommon in Ireland, as were all bogie wagons of any sort prior to the 1970s. The few bogie flats we DID have - I have seen a pic of a MGWR one somewhere, though it could be a relic of the Bretland train. I don't know what the Midland used it for, and I don't know if there were more than one. The GSWR had some sort of bogie flat too - again, I'm unaware of any details but I saw a pic of a bogie once! The GNR had the bogie Guinness vans - again, very few in number and confined to one specific traffic. There were at least two cariations of the design. The closest I can see to anything that ran here is this, but it's VERY much a "two-foot-rule" job. Paint it grey and put "G N" or "G S" on it, or a tiny "flying snail", and you're good to go: https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/oo-gauge/wagons-OO-Gauge/OO-Gauge-Bogie-Bolster-E This Bachmann one is NOT even remotely close to anything Irish: https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/1157802238?iid=203210768422 Now, there's a difference between wagons WITH bolsters and those without! The Dapol one above has them attached, but something tells me they look entirely wrong for Ireland. Without any clear knowledge of any regular sort of use for a beast like this, it's impossible to know whether the few bogie flats had them at all, or were even suitable to fit them to. If we look at the GNR grain bogie currently under restoration at Whitehead, we can see the short-wheelbase bogies which were similar to what I saw under the Midland one which lurks in my past memory. Also, they were short body length - something between 30ft and 40ft, I guess. Among Cyril Fry's models there is a bogie flat also, I think of GNR origin. The bolsters are very much smaller than in the Dapol model. With the museum closed at the moment, I'm not sure when I'll next be in. I do have a few bits of work to do there, but they are not urgent nor in the public eye, so I don't know when that will be, but I will post pics of this model when I can. The County Donegal Railways had one at least, as well. Really, in all reality, in modelling goods trains pre-1970 anywhere in Ireland, broad or narrow gauge, and going WAY back, one can take it as a rule of thumb that roughly half of all non-passenger stock are four wheeled goods vans of all sorts of types. Of the remainder, it may safely be assumed something over half of them in cattle trucks, and the rest open wagons. In the last 15 years or so of loose-coupled goods trains, the cattle wagons began to vanish like snow off a ditch, and were seen on fewer and fewer lines, so a 1960s goods train will be mostly vans - possibly 65% - and opens. As will be appreciated, tank wagons were also very few and far between, and entirely absent from many (or most!) routes.

Found it; this from the P Dillon collection: (Seven four-wheelers was the maximum allowed load).

Yes - in all reality, a 1960s CIE passenger train without one is as unrealistic as one without a locomotive - or a goods train without a brake van. I've 4 but I need another 4......