jhb171achill

They had started repainting them in black'n'tan as early as 1964, and therefore before they were all fitted with full-length handrails. Thus, it was possible to find black'n'tan ones both with and without full handrails. Same with the little sand-filler jobbies on the nose ends.

The supervisor in Conyngham Road bus garage didn't like it and ordered it to be repainted back into the old livery, as he felt that it didn't reflect the "modern" image of CIE's buses. A second bus was almost finished but was also repainted before leaving the paint shop. I saw it - I came in from somewhere by train to Heuston on my wandering days, and it and another navy & cream one were sitting under the canopy (where taxis go now) adjacent to platform 5. Thought it looked interesting but it was late, fading light, and I had run out of film, so no photo! It was operating the No. 90 service to Connolly Station that night. The inside back platform was a dark grey, which I believe, since, might have been still undercoat because there was a story that they hadn't quite decided what colour the stairwell ought to be.

That pic puzzled me too. A “C” would indeed be a strange choice for a goods on that line, but who knows. My best shot is that it’s broken down somewhere else and it’s being towed elsewhere to be fixed,

Thanks for your comments, Iarnrod. I should have made that clear - they’re meant to be fictitious wagon numbers! The one ending in “M” would be of former MGWR origin.....

Ah! I was looking at it on my mobile. It's not much better here - must set it out better next time!!! Thanks for your comments - I hope that it is of use or interest.

This hasn’t come out the way I intended! Any thoughts on how to put up a table like this on here? I tried earlier on a different forum and couldn’t load it there at all.....

In the light of new and forthcoming releases of model locomotives from the 1950s period onwards, the following is to give details of what rolling stock was about during the various times these locomotives operated in the different liveries offered. It might be added that for modellers, there is but one rule: it’s your railway, so if an “Enterprise”-liveried 201 hauling grey cattle trucks is your preference, that’s fine; and if you like steam engines and grey 121s hauling orange or ivory cement bubbles or Bell Liner trains, that’s all good! For those who like me prefer to self-impose rules about historical accuracy, the following may be of assistance. In each column, these are blanked out at times before the item concerned entered traffic, or after the last were withdrawn. Thus, for steam engines, while 1963 is the year the LAST of them operated in normal traffic (excluding the “Grand Steam Tour” in 1964), it doesn’t mean they were ALL in use until then. The 1977 date, for example, for the last G class is the date the last of them was withdrawn; the truth was that many had been already lying derelict at Inchicore for years. Where a livery change is indicated, this represents the year that the first examples of the item concerned was painted this way. New liveries almost never happen overnight – there will be a period where a newly repainted loco or coach operates alongside one in the old livery. For example, by the time the last loose-coupled goods train ran in 1976, a good fifth of the wagon stock was still grey, despite the bauxite brown having appeared in 1970/1. Another matter is when rolling stock was built over a period, first and last examples will have started life in different liveries; the first cement bubbles were grey to start with, but later repainted orange and grey – but the last ones went straight into traffic in orange and grey. I have tried to indicate this by adding this vertical line - | to indicated how long an old livery was still about after a new one was dreamed up. So, for example, a 121 class loco enters traffic in grey, but once the first one is repainted black’n’tan, the vertical line appears in that box until 1968, by which time it appears that the last one was repainted thus. (I hope this makes some sort of sense). Comments welcome; given occasional oddball exceptions this will not be an EXACT science in a few cases, but it’s certainly close enough. It is intended to show modellers what ran with what – or didn’t! I'm sending this lot in two messages, as my computer doesn't like tables. K E Y Locos Coaches Always black chassis and ends; roofs either black or dark grey. With black’n’tan livery, always black roofs, never dark grey. Wagons Always chassis and roof same colour as body. Roofs weathered quickly, often looking a nondescript greyish colour. (For Ireland, “black chassis disease” is for BR and Hornby models!) Steam Engines – In 1955, grey except suburban tanks and main line passenger, these lined green. AFTER 1955 ONLY, while few steam engines were repainted, many of those that were, appeared in black. Last (very short-lived!) repaints in 1962 grey. N / A 187M From 1945 to the early 1950s, CIE carried on using the GSR wagon grey (same as LMS grey in Britain, or NCC). Flying snail logos were painted on, and both they and numerals were pale green, the same “eau-de-nil” as used on bus and carriage lining. 1955-56 Silver with light green logos and numerals The only carriages which entered traffic in silver were the very first one – or possibly very few – Park Royals (very quickly repainted green for suburban use), laminates built 1955-7, and a few mail vans & earlier “tin vans” of LV, GSV & TPO varieties. Some “silver” vehicles remained thus until black’n’tan came in – mostly some tin vans and postal vehicles. 1396 From the mid 1950s, wagon grey remained unchanged but logos and numerals began to be painted in white. “Flying Snail” logos are still painted. 1945-1955 “Standard” CIE dark green. Black & white lining, as with green steam engines. Few steam engines were painted from the mid-1950s onwards. Of the few that were, I am unaware of any receiving a new coat of green. Existing green ones became disgracefully filthy. Of the few locos painted after 1955, some were a “new” all-black livery. The very last two newly painted, in 1962, were grey again. Note: For carriages, this is out of sequence: this dark green livery was before the silver mentioned above… On carriages, full light green lining above and below windows with light green “snails” and numerals. Black or very dark grey roofs, black ends. In the late 1950s, Cork repainted some secondary stock in a plain version of this colour with no lining and either no “snails”, or one, or two! Many narrow gauge carriages also had an unlined version, sometimes with no logo. On carriages, lining, snails & numerals always light green, never white – that was for steam engine lining…. 14087 From 1963, as goods brake vans are being repainted, they gain the lighter grey colour. Shortly after, the yellow and black “wasp stripes” are introduced about the same time as the CIE “Roundel”, but on new vans only. Older ones are scrapped / withdrawn. From the late 1950s, the shade of grey became much lighter, and the “flying snails” began to be stencilled rather than painted. From 1963, the new “Roundel” logo began to appear, however, a good few wagons made it well into the 1970s still with “flying snails”. New “H” vans after 1963 (and after 1965, the sliding-door “Palvans”) had roundels with a tan surround, rather than all-white. Other wagons retained white ones, or older “snails”. 1957-1962 Grey & Green Era: Lighter green introduced in 1955 for carriages and new diesel engines. Took some time to replace short-lived silver paint on some locos and coaches, and especially mail coaches and generator vans. On locomotives, this sometimes, but not always, carried a light green (not white!) waist line. “A” class locos had a light green “flying snail” but nothing else did, including G’s. On carriages, the waist line was always present except on some six-wheelers, but in later days the “flying snails” were often omitted. Park Royals never had “flying snails” in any livery. Older dark green coaches, including six-wheelers, were repainted this way, so by 1960 almost all stock was like this, of all ages and origins from brand new to ancient. 11825 In 1970, wagons started being painted all-brown. The shade was slightly less reddish when new, than that used today, but much the same. Obviously, no “flying snails” were ever on brown wagons, but all logos and lettering were white from start to finish. Since loose-coupled trains ended in 1976, by the time they did a good 20% of all wagons in use were still grey, and a handful still had “flying snails” to the end. Locomotives: 1963-72 ___________ Non air-conitioned coaches inc. Cravens: 1963-1990s Black & Tan Era: This colour on the chart below indicates the versions of this livery WITHOUT any tan – thus all black with white flashes above cab windows. On both B113s, plus SOME (but not all) A & C class (but not B101s), yellow patches were added. A, C, G611 & E classes could be in black with tan lines, or without any tan. In 1963, most new repaints from green had full tan sides which they would mostly lose for a few years afterwards. A & C classes were never again all-black after they got their GM engines 1968-71. For carriages, there is but one standard here, which for all coaches featured here survived until they were scrapped, never having the “supertrain” livery. The exceptions were the cravens, which had an amended version with an extra orange line above windows and white below – but that’s decades after any black’n’tan or grey or green diesel was about the place – 1990 onwards. This table stops at 1980……… Fitted wagons: the very earliest four wheeled ones were standard grey, but repainted brown 1970 onwards. There were a handful of exceptions in wagon liveries, but confined to departmental one-offs and the like. 1977 / 1978 Darker brownish-tan which the 071s had on delivery. Non standard and replaced at first repaint by normal orange-tan colour, plus correct version of CIE badge. N / A 1972 - 1987 This is the “Supertrain” livery introduced in 1972 N / A This was introduced with Mk 2 air-con stock, which is too late for this table! STEAM B113 D A C B101 G601 E401 K801 G611 E421 121 141 181 071 6-wheel passenger carrying 6-wheel full passenger brake vans Wooden bogies (inc. non-corridor) Bredin & 1950-54 CIE stock Park Royals Laminates “Tin Vans” (LV & GSV) Cravens WAGONS GOODS BRAKE VANS 1950 Mostly dark grey, some green but filthy, a few black after 1955 only GNR Dark Blue On delivery, non-std. CIE logo, also all white. Normal logos with tan surrounds added at first repaint, when shade of “orange tan” was also regularised. 1950 Light green “snails” & Nos. 1955 Silver with light green numerals & “Flying Snail” Silver with light green numerals No logo – “Flying Snail” on “A” class only 1955 1st silver Some remained “silver” WHITE “Snails” & Nos. 1956 1956 | 1957 1957 | | | | Rest mid green from new. No “Snail” | Lighter grey, white “Snails” & Nos. | 1958 1958 | | | | until “black & tan” era | 1959 | | | 1959 | | | | | 1960 | | | 1960 | | | | 1961 | | Most black with just white upper cab lines, for most of the time. Some, esp. “G”, had tan bans at bottom. A few E421 had this in the early 60s, but most of their lives the “E”s were all-black Grey & Yellow. Black’n’tan from 1965 Last grey c.1968 1961 | 1962 1962 | | 1963 | | No CIE “Roundel”logo when new. Added after 1967. 1963 | Black & Tan (original “single stripe”version). This was carried until about 1990. Upper orange line with lower white line was post-1990 (approx) only, but many had original livery almost until c. 1996). So no “waistline white lines” ran with grey or black’n’tan GMs! CIE “Roundel” replaces “Snails” – but only VERY GRADUALLY 1964 All steam withdrawn All-black with white line at cab tops. B113/4 with yellow ends | | None of these 3 were vac braked, so not used on passenger trains | Not used regularly after c.’1965 1964 Last ones withdrawn 1963 in Cork | | | | | | Black & Yellow 1965 1965 | | | | | “Back-to-backs”,“H” Vans & “Palvans” ONLY have tan surrounds on CIE logo “Wasp” stripes 1966 1966 | | | | | added 1967 Delivered with CIE logos 1967 | | 1968 1968 1969 1969 1970 1970 | 1970-76- new brown livery | 1971 1971 | 1972 1972 | 1973 | | | | 1973 | 1974 | | | | | | 1974 | 1975 | | | | | | 1975 | 1976 | | | | | | * 1976 | Departmental trains only after ‘76 1977 | | | | | | ( * Non standard dark tan when new) 1977 Modern world of fitted wagons (all brown) 1978 Exact date of last in BnT not known | 1978 1979 Most OOU 1972/1973 Exact date of last in BnT not known 1979 1980 1980

Mods - how do I delete this post?

They're deeply twisted people in the Correos, DJ.........

In theory. However, the costs associated with operating a full-size steam locomotive, plus the regulatory regime, insurance costs, railway safety case and other stuff would make such a thing hopelessly uneconomic. Even more so, the importation of a loco, conversion of it, and certification processes here - you'd need a hefty six-figure sum, or more like seven figure. Downpatrick uses two TINY shunting engines and a TINY 5'3" gauge loco in rotation. These are barely economically viable even there, other than at Christmas, Easter, St. P's Day and Halloween. Sadly, the market for railway preservation in its proper sense in Ireland is exceptionally small. "Lough Erne" would be a lovely thing to behold (Galteemore here might just agree with me!) but would conservatively cost half a million sterling for an almost total rebuild from ground up - she's mechanically and internally in a shocking state, with most of the loco only fit for scrap.

That would finnish me off. And the garden.

Only got my B134 today by post (yes, with my life history printed on the front!)....it doesn't concern me, but I wonder why it took so long? Not an issue, just curious?

Indeed - because grey was such an unusual livery, especially when it covered every detail on a loco, it did look odd to those who weren’t used to it - i.e. virtually 99% of people! Despite it being grey on arrival at Whitehead, what possibly didn’t help was a belief at Whitehead that everything CIE has to be black! 186 was “passed” as accurate by at least two individuals who were very familiar indeed with 1930s - 1950s Inchicore.....

indeed..... or it is 5ft?

Albeit a very much darker shade of grey, I would think that this is precisely the reason that grey steam locos often look odd to many people.

They’re 5’6”. The only places with 5’3” other than here are Australia (parts of) and Brazil, as far as I am aware. The larger 5’6” gauge is found in India, Pakistan, not sure about Bangladesh any more, and Sri Lanka. The Spanish, Portuguese and Russians and some former soviet countries also have broad gauge.

Yup - pretty disastrous.

Exactly!!!!

That’s the beauty of model railways! We can create a scene with scenery so realistic it looks like it’s growing, and models with detail so historically accurate that the very fussiest rivet counter would be reaching for his smelling salts - but it’s a fictitious location, or it has highly accurate-looking cattle trains where none existed. If the last few stones’ throws had been retained, Dungarvan could have remained linked. So your layout could be based on Kilmac or somewhere, or even a Dungarvan terminus (the way Kilkenny ended up), with the magnesite, but also two passenger trains a day and goods trains. Depending on whether you were concentrating on 1967-75 or later, you’ve scope for cattle specials, or a container, cement or fert from Waterford to Dungarvan.....

The tin vans shared a body profile (loading gauge) with the later "laminate" coaches, but nothing much else. To do justice to models, you'd probably have to do almost all of their design as one-offs - certainly, if Murphy / IRM standards were to be attained. Makes them appear less viable, but I've said it before - virtually all 1960s trains, and late 50s diesel trains, are quite simply as unrealistic without one as without a locomotive. The two BIG missing links in the 1950-75 period are AEC railcars and "tin vans". Many wagons too, but Provincial's cattle wagons, corrugated ("tin?") open wagons, and above all, the ubiquitous "H" vans, solved that through kits. Maybe when Leslie's sold out of them, someone will do RTR ones! Your idea about a run of British Mk 1s along with CIE's "BR Vans" is an interesting one, indeed; I am sure we'd welcome IRM's thoughts on that type of idea. One complication is that there was not a single type of "BR Van". The CIE genny vans were made from several different original varieties of British coach - thus, it would almost certainly only be feasible to do one type - but that would be fine. Generator vans truly are the next stage needed, hopefully.

What’s really needed are various “tin vans” for the era of grey 121s and black or green “A”s, or earlier black’n’tan 141s, as the BR vans didn’t exist until early 70s.

N O W you are talking!!! She could lift a fair load too, of course.......

I’ve only just remembered - I had forgotten all about this - I was in a 201 myself not long after they were new - which hit 102 or 103. Cork line....

Urban legends had the three 800s, or 800 herself at least, at 100. Senior used to say that it is very possible, indeed probable on trial, but to his knowledge (and mine) no RELIABLE account seems to exist. I can confirm that a 201 did do 105. Also, a retired driver told me that he often had 071s at well over 85 on passenger trains in the 1978-85 period when he drove on the Cork line. The Passage 2.4.2Ts seem to have been the fastest narrow gauge locos, with the NCC 2.4.2Ts not far behind them.

B101s were on the goods too, yes.