jhb171achill

Re the GSR loco livery.... I've seen this, and the commissioned paintings front and back on that book are as absolutely superb as the contents. However, unless a few were ever done like that, eyewitness reports of a number of individuals who were regulars in Inchicore were all specific that plates were usually plain grey, but the raised rim and numbers could be - (a) painted over - not highlighted at all. This is evident in the occasional pic showing a (occasionally!) newly painted loco! (b) picked out by rubbing to bare metal - rare, but reported as seen (c) most often, picked out in pale yellow or cream. Photos bear this out too. The book also mentions black roofs and smokeboxes. Again, eyewitnesses (all of the ones I refer to now dead) report plain grey; their point bring that in Ireland and Britain (but, as a matter of interest, not mainland Europe), a smokebox in anything other than black was otherwise unheard of. I once owned a plate off a Midland "E" class, GSR No. 560. It was painted grey. On scratching the paint with a nail, there was older grey underneath, not black. Sadly I sold it years ago. Where this may be coming from is the fact that the GSWR had black-backed numberplates not only when their engines were black (pre-1915) but when they were green before that. About 1962, I think, maybe '61, one J15 was repainted grey in Cork. Since about 1955/6, the few cie repaints of steam engines got a coat of black. But what was interesting to livery-nerds like me, was that this time this engine stood out as it had, in the eyes of the witness, "uniquely", grey paint but black smokebox. jhbSnr recalled seeing a J15 literally being pushed out of the paint shop, still smelling of paint rather than hot oil, and he was curious to see the numbers just rubbed bare metal. Upon asking if they were to be painted, he was told no. He had not seen one like that before, but did subsequently. Dirt and weathering often made smokeboxes look darker - we saw this with 186 in recent years. The late Billy Lohan of Galway assured me all was grey, this corresponding with what others had told me too. It's notoriously hard to define colour from a black and white photo, especially if the subject matter is dirty! However, clean locos existed, and sometimes can be clearly seen in photos, not least in the excellent "big green book". A black plate with red numerals would definitely show up as a much darker patch on many photos - red always shows up pretty dark on a b & w photo, never mind black. And this isn't the case. I have alluded before, though, to one of the few exceptions: in late CIE days, two of the 800s got red background plates, and at least one, maybe two, of the Passage 2.4.2Ts on the C & L had non-standard SIZED plates, plus red numbers, in the late 50s. But that seems a one-off; no colour photos I've ever seen show red numerals anywhere on a GSR / CIE loco. Wheels and motion were certainly grey too. Cab interiors varied. Some were also all-grey, adding to the ethereal dullness of the livery! Other were a mid brown internally, roof underneath included. Others still had the more conventional mid-brown lower and cream upper, though I wonder was that more in CIE times. Interesingly, Fry painted one model in a style similar to the painting, but he was known to take liberties with liveries, despite his protestations to the contrary! Eight-coupled No 900 is in Maedb's fully lined green on his model, but it spent all its life grey. The late, great, Drew Donaldson liked CIE lined green so much that he painted almost ALL his models that colour, whether they ever carried it or not - and most didn't!

Yes, you're certainly right about the C & L, and I wouldn't be surprised about the T & D. So, I'm going to cautiously go with C & M mileposts for the time being! It is indeed the sort of thing that jhbSnr would have been likely to have made notes of. Many thanks for that - you just never know what you'll find.....!

I have an excellent book on it which I can lend you. Loads of photos, full history, a couple of loco drawings, track plans..... PM me and I can post it to you.

It’s 1961, and IRM have been given a tour of both Inchicore and Limerick works, on the STRICT condition that they bring out models of wagons to be built in the next 20 years, and an A class. Sit back and visualise what we’re seeing around us; And..... Linerick has four steam in hand.

Ah!!!! Minister, you've maybe cracked it! He went into Macroom twice just before it closed, once in the van of a cattle or PW train and once in the cab. Could the shapes be Macroom mileposts? “Load 22 + van” could refer to a cattle special.

Very true! Then I'm flummoxed!

CARRIAGE ALLOCATIONS 1949/50 This gives an idea of train consists seventy years ago. Sounds a long time, but only a few years ago, nobody was modelling anything much before 1975. Then we got well into the black’n’tan era. Now, with J15s, A, C, B101,121,141,181, E & G classes, laminates, Park Royals, Tom vans, various loose-coupled goods vehicles, we’re into the “grey’n’green” era. One step more and this stuff’s of use. Now - the carriage allocations are of interest to anyone wanting to create a 1950s / early 60s branch line scene, as perusal of the attached lists show what trains were typically made up of. I say "typically"; on days like fair days, and extra coach might be added. If the normal branch set was taken away for maintenance, gawd knows what they might put in there instead. Senior told of a jaunt down some branch in the 1950s with a quite new CIE "Bredin-design" coach, probably only a few years old, with an absolutely ancient, clapped out MGWR 6-wheel brake third behind it. For anyone interested. I have this list to cover THE WHOLE CIE SYSTEM FOR 1949 / 50, main lines an'all. So if anyone wants to know what was on any specific line, ping me privately and I'll send it to you. The GNR's perusals of running costs for AEC cars crept in here too.....

The locos weren't too varied, Colin, but the carriages were actually painted at least three distinct reds. Most were much as now, but some were a maroon and cream colour. The so-called "F" "Saloons" were painted pillar-box-red all over in the 1970s. As far as the locos were concerned, what happened with the different pigments that you mention, was that while locos looked the same (and were, to all intents and purposed) when newly painted, different batches of paint faded at different rates. Thus, some would look a bit more brownish in time, others not. Weathering and filth, as with all things steam, never helped! (I'm assuming you're another IOMR enthusiast, like me....)

That is absolute true masterpiece! .....but...... things might have been different:

The attached is a diagram with measurements from the UTA’s drawing office about 1959. Useful for modellers of the GNR, NCC, UTA and early NIR.

Could be, porky! It wasn't the only "cryptic" note he left behind!

Housebound by the Coronavirus (or is it Brexit? I'm getting senile here in the Catacombs...) I was having a rummage today for something that I was asked about. As usual, I still haven't found what I was looking for, á la U2. But I did find a few odds and ends, as follows. Quiz question: the pranged 70-class; where & when? (Colin McL, I know that you know!! )

The Hendry brothers and James Boyd were a powerhouse of information on the IOMR. I very much suspect that they WERE just “too alike”; in my fifty years of bumbling about within the railway world, the railway historical world, enthusiast and preservation worlds, I’ve met all sorts. And some are pure geniuses at their chosen interests. In every single hobby, we have our balanced and unbalanced eccentrics and the occasional outright oddball! Tis part of what makes, eh, life’s rich tapestry so interesting.... James didn’t suffer fools, and nor did Cyril Fry. Anecdotal evidence suggests the Hendrys didn’t either. It’s very probable that none of them had much time for each other! However, all four made a monumental contribution to our knowledge of railways, and for that we may be very grateful. I had Boyd’s books on the IOMR devoured cover to cover before we ever met - and that was when I was 19....

Learned colleagues; I attach a scribbled note among some of jhb171Senior’s papers. It’s on the back of a bit of paper used as a bookmark in an old magazine. I assume it’s a note of a load on a trsin hailed by 432, but what’s the rest? I suspect it’s the designs of MGWR mileposts, unless it’s symbols associated with suburban trains? Any thoughts?

Indeed! And the odd “H” van STILL carrying a “flying snail”.....

What I liked about the laminates was the sheer variety. Anyone who hasn’t got it, try to get via fleabay the first edition of “Irish locomotives and rolling stock”, a small but very comprehensive “spotters book” by Oliver Doyle & Stephen Hirsch, published in the 1980s. You’ll be amazed at the various permutations of all things laminate.... Even the next edition of it, after which much of this stuff is withdrawn, is fascinating. But a 1962 edition would have been the size of seven New York telephone directories due to the sheer variety of everything, and numerous one-off variations!

No book specifically about them, but a number of books cover CIE’s 1955-63 railway modernisation programme. To get the whole story, we need to go back to the GSR modernisation programme which resulted in the 1933, 1935 and 1937 “Bredins”, and the follow-up series of new CIE coaches in 1951-3. The bulk of what were known as “laminates” were a follow on from these, built 1956-61. The pic appears to be a brand new rake, probably among the last built. Just a short time after that, the Cravens were introduced.... Last of them were withdrawn in the late 1980s.

Fairly new “laminates” in original green livery.

I hope it was Guinness. One must maintain standards, even in the face of adversity.....!

I was thinking the same! Disclaimer: if I have the virus and anyone reads this... ah, it's too late now. Youv'e read it......

Amazing!!!! Superb job as always

Indeed; I stand humbly corrected!!

Looking amazing, Brian! That lot will look amazing behind an "A"......

Are the old MIR ones metal or plastic? Metal, I think??

I heard of at least one occasion last year when a group of "hens" going to Killarney were extremely abusive to other passengers and threatened to assault one.....