jhb171achill

BCDR maroon was quite dark - the two restored BCDR coaches at Downpatrick are correctly done, lining, lettering and all. In pre-war times the lining was gold and a full crest was carried on the side. At some stage, possibly as early as the mid 30s, but certainly mid 40s, lining tended to be a straw colour with a gold-ish tint, and crests were often not applied. Coach ends were maroon, and roofs a mid grey.

I had a note somewhere of the number of that Craven with the logos. Anyone know?

MikeO, GNR stuff was the same - all types of coach of all ages on all trains, but obviously all GNR stock. Re liveries I'm texting this from an iPhone in a tram - not easy - will reply in detail when I get home!

Murrayec & Mayner..... excellent news from both of you.

Good to see the TT at Tara Junction working better than the one at Claremorris!

I'd love to see that in the flesh, Andy... Noel - the carriages in that clip are all GSWR 1885-95 period. Wayne gets out of a "lavatory composite", i.e. with a loo accessible to the two first class compartments, but not the thirds at the ends! Same era & origin of coach.

Passenger Train Formations – CIE As a result of several recent conversations, it occurred to me that the random nature of train formations in the recent past is something which occasionally comes up. Today’s enthusiast has been used to some forty years where train formations are entirely of a single uniform type of stock. This was not only rare in the past, it was almost unknown in day to day service – even when the 800 class were introduced. The modeller of anything prior to 1972 might be interested in what follows – simply an absolutely random selection of ordinary everyday trains from photos taken between the mid 1930s and mid 1960s. This will give a snapshot of typical train formations in the grey’n’green and black’n’tan eras. An absolutely uniform row of anything is, in all reality, unrealistic from that era! 1959 Dublin suburban, steam, hauled MGWR 6w 2nd, MGWR 6w 1st (now downgraded), DSER 6w 3rd, DSER bogie brake 3rd, 2 x GSWR bogie 3rds, MGWR full passenger brake - unusually for then, still with birdcage. 1934 Cobh; probably up mail GSWR high-roof composite, GSWR low roof brake 3rd, GSWR low roof 3rd, GSWR high-roof coach, and a mail van of some sort at the back. All bogie. 1930 Achill MGWR 6w full passenger brake, MGWR bogie tricomposite (now 1st / 3rd) 1952 Clondalkin; down night mail GSWR bogie mail van, unidentified (prob GSWR) 6 wheel mail van, GSWR low-roofed bogie 3rd, Bredin, early CIE Bredin lookalike, an old wooden brake bogie, plus what looks like another low roofed bogie 3rd after it. A few four wheelers bring up the rear; the photo isn’t great, but I think they are horse boxes! A 400 class up front. 1957 Skirting Killiney Bay – local from Bray Park Royal, Bredin, Park Royal, GSWR non corridor bogie brake 3rd, GSWR low roofed third. This is the ONLY train in this selection so far with more than one coach of the SAME type! Rathpeacon, 1951; up train Ancient 6w full brake – looks GSWR, GSWR 1924-series high-roofed composite, high roofed GSWR 3rd, low roofed GSWR third, and a low-roofed coach at the end – looks like a 1901-5 type GSWR type. At the far end, a six wheeled brake of some sort. Easter 1956, and 802 is lifting the following out of Kingsbridge with the down mail: Heavily rebuilt 6w mail van – looks GSW by origin, but could possibly be a GSR rebuild of an MGWR type; GSWR corridor composite (I think), low roof GSWR third, high roof MGWR, low roof GSWR, the next one is GSWR but I can’t make out what it is, then a Bredin, then a six wheeled van. Mallow, 1956, up train GSW high roof 3rd, two old GSWR mail vans each of a different design, brand new laminate, Bredin, an old wooden coach I can’t make out (possibly a dining car), several vans and a six wheeled passenger brake. Dungarvan, 1961 B101, Laminate, GSWR high-roofed 3rd, GSWR low roofed, another GSWR low-roof of a different design, and what could possibly be a GNR wooden bogie, possibly GSWR. And finally, U class 197 arrives in Amiens St from Howth with a mix – all now in CIE green – of a GNR brake 2nd, a GNR 2nd, a GSWR third and I can’t make out the last one with the engine smoke. Finally, finally, we’re into black’n’tan diesel days; the following are all a combination of random photos and memories of mine from between 1968 and 1974. 1. An “A” with a tin van, suburban Bredin, main line Bredin, Park Royal & Laminate. There’s another van – probably a heating van. 2. One old wooden GSWR bogie brake, Park Royal, Bredin, Craven and tin van. 3. Park Royal, Laminate, Bredin, and three wooden bogies, no two the same, but all GSWR. 4. And finally, one more with more than one the same! First, B150 leaves Connolly in 1973 with a tin van, Park Royal, Laminate, older laminate, two Park Royals, laminate and a van at the end of some sort. Next, in 1974, leaving Tralee, we have a 141 hauling three laminates of two designs, one Craven, one full parcels / mail brake (GSR / early CIE?), a wooden GSWR bogie and a BR genny van. I have often commented on the lack of uniformity of trains in the past, I wrote this intending to illustrate the point to assist modellers of the period, but I find myself surprising myself too – look how many trains above have even two of the one type, never mind a rake of them! I recall watching the 10:30 down Cork passing Port Laoise in 1977 or 8. There were ten bogies and two vans. I think there were two Cravens and two Park Royals or something like that, all separately amongst a hotch potch mix of various types of laminates and so on. One van was a 322X series, the other a BR….

Firstly, Minister, there were less of them than the other companies. But also, exactly as you suggest, civil war losses and probably arrears of maintenance put paid to more. They didn't disappear entirely. Senior remembered their distinctive door handles when commuting on the line between 1922 and 1937, and photos taken in the 1950s still show the odd one.

Not only suitable, but in a Midland days these engines pulled little else in passenger trains! It's like a new 071 and Mk 2s on a layout based in 1985! In GSR days, same story exactly. In CIE days, obviously every steam or diesel loco hauled passenger trains consisting of ancient and modern, everything from the oldest then in traffic (1877 six wheeler) to brand new laminates, but these MGWR six wheeled yokes were very much in there among them. Former MGWR stock made it all over the GSWR and DSER, and were regulars in West Cork right until closure, with a couple of old six-wheeled brake thirds still on the Drimoleague - Baltimore line (along with one or two equally venerable antiques of GSWR parentage). At least one managed to hop onto the Tramore line. Six were borrowed by the Belfast & Co Down in the mid 1910s.

I wouldn't say very little immediately after the formation, but while much GSWR and MGWR stuff got transferred onto the South Eastern, not so much DSER stock went elsewhere. While I can't quote actual statistics, I do know that by 1950 a large proportion of DSER stock is no longer listed as being on the books. Then, over 1951/2, CIE build a lot of new stock, thus cascading more six-wheelers from elsewhere onto Bray - Amiens St & Harcourt St services. By the mid 50s, the DSER is a mix of new CIE, the odd Bredin, brand new Park Royals, and a mixture (especially in terms of suburban six-wheelers) of DSER, GSWR and MGWR stock. By the late 50s, most surviving pre-1925 main line or bogie stock is GSWR, while surviving six wheelers, as excursion / branch line / peak period stock, appear to be mostly MGWR, but many GSWR types still lurking. For Mayner's 650 class kit - or indeed any MGWR prototype - or just about any steam loco in CIE days, even into the diesel "C" class era, the solid old wooden Midland six-wheeler is not only compatible, it's as good as obligatory. By 1959, very few DSER coaches at all exist. And - crucially - for a DSER modeller, since ex-DSER stock (a) became rarer quicker, and (b) seem to have remained on home territory, the following conclusions can be drawn: 1. Only a DSER loco, or a Midland of GSWR one know to have worked the DSER line, is properly or normally compatible with DSER stock. CIE being the hotchpotch working museum that it was, I'm sure there was the odd exception, but that would be the general idea. 2. A layout based elsewhere is not the most realistic place for a DSER coach! Again, the odd exception might happen, such as a GAA special from, say, Wexford to Thurles!

In MGWR days the typical branch make-up was a full brake or brake 3rd, and a first, second and third. Later, when only two classes existed, it was a first, two thirds and a brake. Some of the old seconds were just downgraded to third, so the actual carriage type mix would have been the same. By the time CIE came into being, anything goes! By 1930, the Clifden and Killala branch sets were often just a brake 3rd and a composite, which could be anything. The Achill set was by now a bogie compo (references to all other carriages above being 6w) plus a brake 3rd 6w. Kingscourt by 1930 quite usually had just the two as well, while the Cavan branch had maybe four. The MGWR had a higher proportion of six wheelers than the GSWR, which is in great part the reason why most bogie wooden stock by the mid 50s were GSWR origin, while most MGWR survivors were 6w. DSER stock vanished at a greater rate. jhb171Senior recalled MGWR 6 wheelers appearing on the Harcourt Street line very soon after the GSR takeover, as he commuted on that line every day at that stage, observing milk churns being loaded at Dundrum for Harcourt Street...but that's another story! As to J15s with DSER stock, that would be Amiens Street - Bray. Such a combination, while possible, is unlikely to have happened often elsewhere. I'm sure J15s appeared on the Harcourt Street line too - certainly, senior mentioned non-DSER locos there in the mate 30s anyway - but I can't remember whether he said they were MGWR, GSWR, or that he didn't remember himself....

Ah! Superb, Andy. I didn't know you were doing a period that early - GSR layouts are (to my knowledge) almost, if not literally non-existent. Both a Valencia / Valentia and a Courtmacsherry prototype would invite quite a hotch-potch of carriages and wagons, almost certainly no two alike! And for 1935 you've all three GSR liveries too, which make for more variety, and make up for nothing but plain grey engines! (Unless 800 is going to make a surprise and premature appearance!)... Both should be extremely interesting projects - good luck!

Andy Excellent idea. I have MGWR drawings somewhere (in fact, I might have sent them to the publisher as they're going to be in the Clifden book). If I can find them they might be of use, though they've been circulated here and there before. MGWR six-wheelers were an integral part of the passenger stock landscape right up to the last ones withdrawn in Cork in 1963. I'm not sure what you mean about the cattle trucks being too modern image - the CIE ones cover the 1950s to (Loughrea) 1975. Certainly there were older ones, though these seem to have been withdrawn (along with any remaining "soft-tops") by the mid / late 50s - their relatively swift demise possibly because most were clapped out. If you're modelling early CIE (1945-56), yes, they're too modern, but a decade later seems to be more popular in modelling terms, and there's much more available. However, for the 1960s the standard CIE cattle truck is a must. We have the very fine kit of the GNR one, but few of these seem to have appeared on the CIE system; I certainly never saw one. I would guess that the wholesale closure of the GNR and the elimination of goods on UTA put paid to most if not all. As others have mentioned, British cattle prototypes don't lend themselves to conversion to Irish stock as they were very different in design (like horse boxes). Allen already has some GSWR six-wheelers. A motley mix of these, plus bogies ancient and modern, and MGWR stuff, would suit a 1950s to 1963 layout well. Currently I'm struggling with space to put something new together after a layout-drought of quite a few years more than I care to remember. I would think I'll be looking at 1959-63, so in that case I would certainly go for several. Given Allen's comments re. what's viable, he says 12 minimum to a sheet, I suggested maybe one full brake, one brake third, five thirds, two firsts and three seconds. Apparently, such as this is certainly do-able. For anyone else involved (Bantry layout?) in the 50s, this would be a boon for you too. Even Arigna Road; the SLNCR had a habit of borrowing GNR or CIE stock when their own diminishing stock of clapped out relics of passenger stock were insufficient. Most of the borrowed stock came from Sligo and was often MGWR six-wheelers. One photo in one of Charles Friel's books shows an excursion entering Enniskillen with Lough Erne / Melvin hauling about five or six coaches - several being MGWR stock (and you can see the faded "flying snails" on them!). A sheet of CIE cattle trucks would be a great addition too. People forget that in rural Ireland, a model goods or mixed train without cattle stock was akin to a model passenger layout based in 1995 with no Mk. 3s!

All Mk. 2. Cravens couldn't run with Mk 2 (or 3) in passenger traffic. I have to say that I saw a random mix of "Galway" liveried Mk 2s and "tippex" ones - more often than the much more uniform set shown above! Good to see them all in a row, as it were - a lovely photo.

Gentlefolks... I have been swopping a few emails with Allen Doherty and I thought the results would be worthwhile, in case anyone isn't aware (though many might be). My understanding is that he needs to do a run of 12 kits on one production run, but they DON'T all have to be identical. My question had been in relation to six wheeled coach bodies, but apparently he could do, for example, three sets of brake, 1st, 2nd and 3rd, totalling 12, on one sheet - plus the six wheeled chassis to go with them. Worsley already advertises various GSWR and DNGR six-wheeled coach kits. Just a point of info. A long-term omission has been CIE cattle wagons and MGWR six wheelers; both as absolutely essential as "H" vans and Bullied opens to the 1950-70 period. This could be the answer, though kit-making skills are required, of course.

Interesting..... A study of all Dublin's depots, or what remains of them, would be good to have. I'd do it myself if I had time. A few years I went up to the erstwhile site of the Blessington steam tram terminus at Terenure. Nothing's left, not that there were many buildings to start with; it was levelled after it closed in the 30s and replaced by a fine art-deco 1930s style cinema - itself now long run-down and converted into a cut price carpet shop until recently.

Flying snail green.....

In general, across Ireland, a museum devoted to anything at all will not be financially self supporting if it is an out-of-the-way place. If this could be fine with IE's full cooperation and full funding from somewhere, and permanently run by volunteers, well and good. And I hope it can be. However, as others suggest, making a busy attraction out of one scene out of an (albeit famous) film 66 years short is a bit far fetched. In order to visit Kiltimagh museum, you have to ring a mobile phone number and someone from the town appears. The day I went, I noticed spiders. They outnumbered the people there by a considerable amount.... Ballyglunin wouldn't be much different.

I went to Kiltimagh for the first time recently. I have to say it isn't up to much. Tuam had an allocation of six J15s (nothing else) in the 1914-20 period, according to the late Billy Lohan.

Attachment won't open......

First pics: GNR(I) chair. These were produced in this form from about 1900-1953. The letters "A F" are A^^^^^ Foundry. Second pics: one half of a curved-ended MR(NCC) chair, early 20th C onwards to about 1945.

Aaaarrrrrgggghhhhhh I'm suffering from "Too-Many-Birthdays syndrome"!

For the narrow gauge bit, 00n3 would be a better bet than 009, which is scale 2ft gauge.

Quite right, John, I forgot about the survivor. A visitor can see it there - Michael Kennedy will be pleased to show a visitor around.

Inchicore wouldn't have the plans now. If they exist at all - and while I might be wrong, I do think I've seen them somewhere - they would most likely be in the IRRS. I think they were built on old T & D chassis, which would make them 27ft long. Inchicore (CIE) built them, so if there was anything of old buses in them, they would (unlike the "bus-coach") have been so heavily altered that comparison with the donor bus would have been rendered irrelevant. Once I get home this afternoon I'll see what I can dig up in the "Catacombs".