jhb171achill

If they eventually restore the Waterside station in Derry, it ought to go there.

Track was mostly chaired on main lines, with soleplates increasingly used as this period went on, especially after the 1960s. Secondary lines and sidings were spiked directly to sleepers usually with rail of lighter section. Some spiked sidings were still to be seen in obscure places until comparatively recently - maybe early 1990s. Many chairs only seemed to have three screws! The GNR and CIE used rectangular chairs, while NCC ones were curved round on the inner side. Examples of all three may still be seen on sidings; some GSR soleplates may be seen in Galway, or were until only months ago when some of the old track was cleared. I am sure that soleplates of GSR and CIE origin are still kicking about in use on sidings.

The GSR painted carriage roofs a mid-grey, and this would have applied to the Pullmans too. They never had the dedicated British brown and cream Pullman livery here as such; but (a) they did initially have the word "Pullman" on them; jhbSenior recalls lettering above window level in gold shaded black and red (standard GSR carriage livery font) saying "Great Southern Pullman" at an early stage, when maroon though. (b) While it wasn't actually the formal Pullman livery, by coincidence the GSR had their own brown and cream livery for a short time (about 1927/8 to mid 30s). This had apparently the same shade of brown as the GWR in Britain, and the brown section (lower) was separated from the cream above by a one-inch black line. Another two black lines were placed immediately above window level, and just below cantrail level, there being no brown above the windows like on the British ones/ Roofs, as always, mid grey. Indeed, it was only well into the CIE era that roofs began to be black. While in the darker (bus / loco shade) CIE green pre-1955, roofs were generally grey, but some photos appear to show black appearing then. When the ghastly unpainted "livery" appeared on new-builds, the roof was unpainted too! After that, with the lighter green, roofs black, which carried on, obviously, right through the "black'n'tan" era. Back to the Pullmans, then. You can have the above brown & cream (black ends too), the standard GSR (LMS shade) maroon with black ends and dark grey roof, or the darker CIE green. None survived to have the lighter CIE green. With both GSR liveries, "Great Southern Pullman" or "Pullman" adorned the sides above window level, and unlike the British ones none of them had names, or "Car No. 444" on the sides. I'm pretty certain that the Pullman crest was never displayed on them. The actual Pullman organisation didn't control them like in Britain - they were fully acquired after only a short time by the GSR, after which repaints would probably have had no "Pullman" wording at all. The "umber" was simply cream, which had got weathered! In steam days, anyone who has ever seen a coach in regular use will see this happening. Look at old pics of Donegal coaches when in use, or for those of us lucky enough to see South African steam in the 1970s / 80s / 90s, same. They carried both the GSR brown and cream (as opposed to Pullman brown and cream) AND the GSR maroon at different times prior to repainting in green by CIE at some stage between 1945 and 1946/7. "....Were there matching boards ( if that is the right term)below the waist on the Irish version?...." Not sure what you mean by that?

800?

Typo!!!!

Ah! Yes...... Excellent stuff.

The loco fits in very well.... while J15s never got anywhere near Bantry, the weathered finish to the paintwork on the shed and the (correct CIE grey!) loco finish look just right for 1950s CIE. A Bandon tank next - I know you've one on the way - now that'll be a sight to behold. The SSM ex-MGWR "J16" 0.6.0T will of course also fit well into a West Cork layout, as will any amount of (filthy!) "C" class diesels!

The snow's the wrong shade of white.......

Looks fantastic. I love the scenery on this layout too.

What! An outline drawing of a bubble in CIE green!!! On a sign! What next! 800 in Translink "red bull"? Where's me smelling salts..... I'm not sure that's a fully correct "flying snail" on that wagon. Czech it out for yourself......

I'm not into British stuff either, but if I was, I suspect either the LMS or GWR would be good companies to concentrate initially on, or 1970s BR. Most pre-group modellers seem to prefer LMS / GWR, judging by display layouts and Hornby catalogues, while after BR, well, there's really SO much you wouldn't know where to start. Perhaps a locomotive of the most common types (classes 47 or 31?) which spanned a greater period and covered a greater geographical spread would be the way to go. In terms of carriages, clearly a Mk 1 or Mk 2 would be the most versatile. With a market as big as that in Britain, and the overall very high standards, and greater interest than here in extreme accuracy, there is clearly a great place for this venture. But there is competition, I would think? I could say "pick something too obscure and nobody will buy it". However, a market is a market, and even a somewhat obscure thing by British standards would surely outsell a sought-after Irish one, as the Irish market is so very smaller. Thus, if you can make a go of bubbles and ballasts, and people like Leslie can sell H vans and beet trucks, it would seem that whatever way you do your costings and business case, you shouldn't need to be confined to the examples mentioned above. However, they might be good safe starters. I know I bang on about this, but unless you are modelling recent times post-"supertrain" in Ireland, the great, glaring gap in the market is six wheeled carriages, still in excursion use as late as 1963. I believe the very last ones were only officially retired in Cork in 1964. Prior to that, they were almost as much a feature of any passenger train, mixed in with bogies, for the preceding seventy years. the same applied in Britain, and the same gap exists there. You can get kits of very nice GWR long wheelbase four wheelers, but not 6 wheelers. Thus, a kit of a common type over there, or a RTR model, could have a side issue of selling the chassis separately to assist Irish modellers too. Both in Britain and Ireland, 30ft (120mm in scale) was a standard length for most companies. I accept that the ubiquitous MGWR variety, while essential on an Irish line in the 1950s and before, is too small to be commercial here. But with Britain having 13 times the population we have, and many modellers here doing British prototypes too, and proportionately a greater interest over there anyway, you could be looking at a potential market for anything of some 20 times that for bubbles, for example. Thus, something six-wheeled could possibly be viable. For modern image, you'll hardly go wrong with a very high-spec Mk. 3 open standard. (Or, as they call them, BSK, GHT, JYT, JHB, HGE types whatever all that stuff means....!) (Do you know what absolutely MADDENS me..... seeing a classification of an Irish coach at Whitehead, Cultra or Downpatrick described in origin or condition as "BR or before", or called a TSO, BST or some such drivel. They were NEVER PART OF BR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Arrrrghghhgghghghhhhhh)

Excellent advice from all, and greatly appreciated. I'm more than happy enough to go down the 21mm route at this stage, and may do so with some stock, but the principal sticking points (pun, again!) are that while the layout will be small, over time there will be a considerable (I hope) variety of locos and rolling stock taking it in turns to traverse it. And - depending on cost. The cost of the actual layout in 21mm will not, as intimated above, be a killer, but over a period of time the awkwardness at best, and cost at worst, of converting every single thing tends to favour 00 gauge. I await answers to a couple of emails about the price of a couple of aspects of this, and that will ultimately decide. A possible project for a small manufacturer of Irish stuff might be four wheeled and bogie chassis in 21mm gauge, or at the least bogies. I know that for me, if such things were purchaseable, I would defintely go for 21mm. The comments made by others above about aspirations to great accuracy in other areas, and then setting things on unrealistically-gauged track is very valid indeed. In the long run, perhaps a solution is (money permitting!!!) the above, with 00 gauge and stock, for operations involving a great variety of stock taking it in turns to visit the terminus, with a separate layout for a much a more limited run of 21mm gauge and maybe one or two locos and a dozen wagons or so. I always thought a 21mm layout based on the Dublin & Blessington would be well worth looking into - two tramcars, two covered vans and two alternating locos would do the lot more than adequately. My sticking point right now is that I intend to have eventually quite a variation of stock which will cover various operating periods 1930s - 1980s.

It's actually a radio. You can get Radio Eireann on it. It is. But it's got a radio built into it too.......

It most certainly is. I think that for those with either the skills to hand-build everything to that gauge, or with the wallet to pay for it, 21mm is the way to go. I'm at "costing" stage now. My own skills are most certainly not those of Mayner, David Holman, Eoin or others of this planet, thus some stuff I would have to have made. It's as simple as this. If I can afford it once all the bean-counting is done, I'm going for 21mm. If practicality dictates, through a melted credit card, that I can't afford it, 00 it is.

Hope you didn't pay him, Brassnut........! Good luck with your corrective endeavours. many on here can answer any questions you have.

I'm convinced. The only issue will be budget. If I can afford the track, it's 21mm. If I can't, it'll be 00. I hope that whatever results will also appear at exhibitions once it's in a state fit to do so. Next challenge: proper 6-wheelers. I'll start with some old botch-job wooden stock in green, just to get things going but the intention is to have the likes of Worsley 6-wheelers behind J15s - thus, a proper GSWR train, none o'those oul Mk 2, 3 or 4 tin-can yokes for me!

I'll take two standards.

Very many thanks, Tony. I'll consider this. Interesting - and highly persuasive! The layout can be operated with a max of two engines, but what will end up being the main issue is that there will eventually be a collection of about 15 locos, steam and diesel, possibly 20 carriages and about 40 goods stock. They will represent the GSR era, the grey'n'green and the black'n'tan eras. Conversion of all the lot is daunting, and 21mm will preclude any possible visits by stock from a friend's layout! I like Mayner's idea of eye level too - that is indeed something which had occurred to me. Do ye know what. Once I've walked the dog I'll go into town this afternoon and browse in the land of Mark's Models in Hawkins St.

I made up a couple of their goods vans many years ago for a long defunct narrow gauge layout, and I didn't find them too difficult, I have to say.

Remind me again, the difference between codes 75 & 100....

I will indeed be in touch with Baseboard Dave shortly. In fact I'll email him tonight and get it over with!

Folks I'm delving here into something which is outside my knowledge or comfort zone, and I'd be interested in anyone's opinion or experience. I am going to put together a small shunting-type layout (I know I'm not the only one here planning such things!) and once complete, while at any one time it won't accommodate a great amount of rolling stock, it's my intention to have a collection of locos and rolling stock spanning the 1930s - 1970s period, through GSR and CIE times. This will mean a lot of stock over a time, with one operating session being GSR steam era, and others being well into the "Supertrain" era. Clearly, 21mm gauge track looks WAY better than 00 and in an ideal world I would see this as the only show in town. I have a SSM J15 which would require doubtless very awkward surgery to convert its gauge, and a MM 141; that's all so far. I'm wondering is it all worth it, as with an eventual collection of wagons, locos and carriages, every single thing will have to be converted. Then there's the track, which I presume would all have to be handmade - again, not something I have any experience in whatever, and not something I would think I'd make a very good job of. So the question is, how does one find out what the easiest (or, should I say, least difficult) method is to (a) convert loco gauges, for example, and (b) laying track? If it all ends up a huge lot of hassle, or very expensive, it'll be 00.

That is just stunning. Superb finish too.

A thought, Tony - you had mentioned doing an "end-to-end" layout - possibly you might be able to put in a lift-up flap bit across the doorway to make a continuous run? N gauge will be just right for that shed.

I think the wheels would be too large, and the wheelbase too long? I'm unaware of the existence of drawings. I must ask around in the IRRS.... maybe the DCDR has them (though I never saw any....)