jhb171achill

It just occurred to me that it might be of interest to readers to know of exact examples in existence of old railway companies' paintwork, and actual paint still available. The following are STILL on the books of the old Belfast paint manufacturer, Jamison & Green, or at least were until very recently. there was a man who retired from the firm a few years ago who was able to source the following for the RPSI, as they had actually supplied the colours to the GNR & UTA: 1. UTA green 2. GNR cream, as on upper panels of the Fintona Tram, buses and railcars, and main line stock repainted for the "Festival" train operated jointly with the NCC in 1951. 3. GNR navy blue, for the above. It is worth pointing out here that the current RPSI scheme on the Cravens is NOT the same; it is blue, whereas the GNR was NAVY blue. In addition, if you visit the Headhunters Railway Museum in Enniskillen, among the collection of railway coats of arms there (often incorrectly referred to as "crests"), the following ones are mounted on boards painted in actual railway company paint: 1. GNR loco blue 2. GNR coach varnish 3. NCC maroon* 4. BNCR maroon 5. DNGR brown, though surface damaged by poor quality wartime varnish! 6. CDRJC cherry red 7. Clogher Valley maroon* 8. GSR later (post-1933) maroon* 9. BCDR maroon** also contains accurate style of lining from 1937-49 period 10. UTA green 11. Dublin & Blessington dark green, as applied to locomotives, tramcars and lower body sides of railcars 12. DUTC / CIE green, on both the DUTC garter and the "flying snail"; the latter showing accurately the shade of light green and gold lining 13. DUTC pre-1937 grey with yellow lining; coincidentally exact same as 1961 early 121 & touring coach livery! (Was this deliberate?) 14. CIE green. This is the same as DUTC tram green, as post-1937, and is thus represented on the "flying snail". The "snail" dates originally from 1941 and was later copied exactly by CIE, but without the "Dublin Tramways" legend in Irish across it! The maroon behind the GSWR device and the grey behind the GNR splasher device are not accurate, but were used as they were the only things to hand at the time the transfers were mounted. * These transfers are all mounted on maroon backgrounds. The shade is as good as identical in those marked *, as this was a commonly available colour at the time. other companies used it too. For modelling purposes, LMS maroon (not red!) is commonly available in Britain for LMS models, though I believe there are issues with having it sent by post. ** The shade used by the BCDR (and SLNCR) was marginally darker. ______________________________________________________________________________ The following vehicles in preservation have the correct shades of paint on them, in the case of UFTM some applied actually by the owning company, which are marked *. Before listing them, I will pay tribute to those who restored them; I am not, by any means, trying to disrespect the superb jobs of restoration by volunteers - having been one myself, and painted many an RPSI vehicle in wrong colours, because it's all the paint they could afford, I wouldn't go there at all! I record the following simply for information. UFTM 1. 800* (The "G S" markings are inaccurate and would have applied to the original livery, which was the slightly lighter GSR green) 2. NCC 74* (Painted by the UTA) 3. BCDR 30* (Painted by the UTA, though in original livery, not later very dark green) 4. The CDR railcars there* 5. The narrow gauge Guinness loco 6. The LPHC Derry shunter, No. 1*, still retains its original paint. The dark green it carries is similar to LLSR loco green and may possibly be the same 7. The MGWR "Dargan Saloon" painted by the GSR or CIE, and possibly the same as the short lived MGWR blue, from the "Tourist train" livery* 8. The maroon and cream of the Bessbrook & Newry tramcar 9. The Fintona Tram* Unsure: 1. The Dublin & KIngstown coach. It was painted, I think, by CIE, but the D & K usually painted third class coaches green, as far as I know 2. The C & L locomotive - I suspect the green is too light Known to be wrong: 1. The CIE brake van. Grey too light, white instead of yellow lines on ducket (and has it a black chassis?) 2. CDR open wagon. While grey paint is actually original, at some stage in its preservation it has been given black ironwork 3. C & L coach. Modern arial pattern white lettering is wholly inaccurate, and the maroon, while OK for GSR era, isn't what they had in C & L days 4. The Castlederg & Victoria Bridge coach - as per the C & L coach, though to be fair the exact shade of maroon hasn't survived Downpatrick & Co Down 1. The diesels (except G611), though the orange on A39 is the later shade from "Supertrain" times; the original was a bit duller or more brownish. 2. GSWR coach 836 had, in its last colour scheme, exact GSWR deep browny maroon. I haven't seen it myself since its recent repaint. 3. The BCDR stock, lining and lettering included. As a general rule, dark yellow lining without coat of arms, gold with it (earlier period) Known to be wrong: 1. Coach 728 - UTA green was slightly darker, as on the RPSI Whitehead set and various preserved buses 2. Coach 3223 - what's on it is suitable for the earlier style of full lining, but with the style carried it should be the lighter green 3. The NCC brake van - grey way too light, and black ironwork is wrong. That light grey was briefly used for PW stock by NIR about 1969-75, nothing else. RPSI 1. The blue on GNR locos, and all other livery details 2. The grey on 186 3. The maroon or GNR navy & cream on Whitehead heritage NCC stock 4. The blue on the Guinness engine 5. It's that long since I've had a mooch round Whitehead I can't remember what else is there livery wise! Known to be wrong: 1. No. 3 "Harvey" was painted a darker green in use; see LPHC No. 1 in Cultra. I remember seeing it on arrival at Whitehead years ago like this 2. The green on 461. It was copied from a model, not the real thing; a quick look at 800 in Cultra would have delivered the correct shade. 3. The UTA dining car, now an exhibition vehicle, no. 87. Spent all its preservation life in NCC livery, but was built three years after the NCC ceased to exist. Ran in UTA green from new, later NIR ivory grey and maroon. 4. The "Harvey" brake van. The inside vestibule should be grey, not cream; no brake vans ever had cream except inside the van. And those zebra stripes, which jar the vision every time!! The thing should be grey all over, lower body included. The GNR, UTA and CIE never picked out ironwork in black on anything! Other random notes: LLSR - used normal wagon grey on coaches in latter days. The CDRJC red / red and cream livery only appeared, like GNR loco blue, in the early 1930s. Prior to that, CDR locos were a very attractive black lined in yellow and red, not unlike the DSER in shades, though differing in pattern. CDR carriages were at various times black (yes!) or black with cream upper panels, and before that brown, another very common colour used back in the day. The RPSI coach livery of blue and cream should not be confused with the GNR one of navy blue and cream. It is probable that liveries on the following, which started life as a fairly dark maroon, tended to adopt a very slight brownish tint as they weathered: GSR, SLNCR, CVR and BCDR. the chemical composition of red-tinted paints at the time was prone to this. Colour photos of SLNCR coaches in later years, when they hadn't seen a paintbrush for aeons, show what was initially a very rich claret colour faded to a wishy-washy browny red, almost indistinguishable from brake dust! The green on BCDR's No. 30 in Cultra is probably similar to MGWR green, as it dates from this period. It may even be similar to pre-1880 GSWR green. BCDR locos were a very much darker green after about 1935, which could weather to an almost black colour. This, itself, was probably along the lines of LLSR loco green, if not darker again. A model of a BCDR loco in the 1940s, for example, would require a green several shades darker than UTA green. GSWR / GSR / CIE loco grey was a shade darker than wagon grey, and is accurately represented on the RPSI's 186. It is better to paint a model in a lighter shade and weather it, than paint it nearly black first, as this looks way too dark on a model. With a single exception (of a J15 repainted very late in the day, about 1961, in Cork), these locos had grey smokeboxes, not the normal black, and they always had grey internal gubbins and connecting rods, not red as was common with other liveries. Hope this is of use.

What's the provenance of the "Ticket Office" one, Nelson? Is it NIR?

I have to say, Glover, I think your models are absolutely top notch and really capture the atmosphere of the prototype better than most I've seen. The variety of them, the attention detail and above all weathering - look at any old photo of the era you are recreating and goods stock was always in a very down-at-heel state cosmetically. A rake of pristine clean wagons in those times, in all fairness, is about as accurate as 800 hauling De Dietrichs!

I have to say, as a regular traveller in ICR sets, I don't find the seats too bad. They're more comfortable than a Mk 4 seat, but so is a plank. My issue with ICRs is the excessive heat, and unventilated smelly toilets. I was on a 29 recently but was only going to Ashtown so it was ok! I find the NIR railcar seats quite good. But, noisy as they were, in terms of passenger comfort, the seats on the old AEC sets were better than any other railcar.

1960s would have had all grey wagons, so that suits. Brown post 1969/70 or so.

The darker grey, Glover, is actually absolutely correct for GNR or pre-1956 (or so) CIE, as well as NCC. BCDR vans were if anything, very marginally darker still. The lighter grey that most of us remember on "H" vans was introduced about 1961 or so, and extended to "palvans" and some wooden opens. This lighter shade was much the same as - if not exactly the same as - that applied to new 121s. Your whole collection looks just right. If I may, in a very constructive sense, though, suggest grey roofs, not white, While often painted the same grey as the wagon (and later brown ones the same brown as the wagon), it rapidly weathered darker with smoke and filth. Incidentally, the shade applied to steam locos was just marginally darker than on that van immediately above, rather than the oft-seen "shade just under black".

The ICR - the most photographed train in Ireland! ;-) And the warmest inside......!

I love the grey 121! Lovely selection of locos and stock.

Ideal location for Provincial Leslie Wagons, and the new U and UG locos, cheque book permitting! Had CIE taken over the GNR, we might have seen the ubiquitous GSWR J15 as far afield as Bundoran, Antrim and Derry!

Brilliant stuff, Glover. No doubt an RPSI May Tour will make it to Pettigo with 171 some day! :-)

Fantastic looking layout. I'm noticing more and more these days the attention to detail in those layouts which have a strong scenic element. Doubtless this is due to an ever greater variety of ever more realistic modelling materials, plus, of course, the essential element of the layout owner's artistic talents and modelling skills. This is one of them!

They come up for auction now and again. Keep an eye on the Sheffield Railway Auction, and the Gloucester one. About once a year, Whytes in Dublin do an "ephemera" auction, with anything from old coins or clothes to railway stuff.

Coffee stirrers - sheer genius! Excellent stuff.

Another oft-ignored but essential feature of so many lines, especially in the south and west.

Stunning - as always. This was surely the best golden age for prototypes for a model layout. The "black'n'tan" era....

TOP CLASS! A once absolutely routine sight at the vast majority of stations, yet largely ignored in the model world!

Absolutely superb layout.

VERY much so!

Exactly!! Hence the variation.

I've seen those cattle truck kits in the flesh and they are fantastic!

If the pic is from 1958, the loco will have a light yellow painted number on the candies. The plate will b long gone. The loco is probably so dirty that in a photo of that quality, the number (and / or light green "snail" on tender) will be invisible.

The "PW Lorry" referred to earlier was nothing more than a push-along hand-cart 4-wheeled flat trolley. They had them at various locations, according to staff involved.

The UTA one is quite rare, as they (a) didn't build that much, and (b) didn't put plates on everything. Even more so, "rebuild" plates were rare enough, and even more so in a place which wasn't a "works" - like Ballymena. I wouldn't be surprised if that is almost, or literally, a one-off.

It'll come as good new to modellers to know that even in steam days, "Enterprise" formations could vary. It was only with the introduction of the NIR Mk. 2 stock in 1970 and the "Supertrains" in 1972 that the one-type-of-coach fixed formation idea which is 100% the case these days, ever came in. Prior to that, passengaer train make up was based on one thing and one thing only - whatever was available, and most suitable. Unlike the severely retrograde situation today, where no two types of vehicles can even be coupled together, ALL railway vehicles had the same couplings, and no electrics were involved involving complicated and non-compatible jumper cables from vehicle to vehicle. thus, ANY vehicles could be coupled. I have seen a photo of an AEC railcar set about to leave Harcourt Street for Bray, with a 1890s MGWR six-wheeler towed at the back. Centre cars for AEC railcars sets, even, could be ex-GNR, ex-GSWR and ex-NCC former steam stock, with minor modifications for gangways etc. Right into the mid 1980s when the last wooden stock disappeared, a train make up on Dundalk to Bray, for example, might be BR Van, laminate type 1, Craven, Park Royal, laminate type 2, laminate dining car with shutters closed, Craven, Laminate brake standard genny. I have a photo somewhere of a Ballina-Limerick train about 1972 or so which has a 121 hauling a "Tin Van" followed by a laminate and a Park Royal. I can remember being at Port Laoise about 1974-ish photographing the stub of the Mountmellick line down in the yard. The H & S police didn't exist, and at extreme threat to my life I wandered about a deserted yard freely, sans steel-capped boots, PTS or day glo knickers. The 1030 Heuston - Cork was heard arriving in the station, so I ran to gain a suitable place to take a photo as it left. It was 141 hauled, and behind it were some 10 bogie vehicles, with no more than two of the one type, a laminate brake at one end and a tin van at the other. In a mixed formation (which was absolutely the norm), there were examples of two or three types of laminates, a Craven or two, a wooden-framed dining car, and a Park Royal or two. Go back ten years earlier and you have old wooden coaches too - almost all, if I remember correctly, which survived into the black'n'tan era being of GSWR origin. Bredins were still about too - the last time I saw or travelled in one myself (with a leaky roof!) was about 1975 or 6. So mix away. Conversely, a passenger train pre-1970 with a pristine rake of a single type of coach is actually not authentic at all 99% of the time! (If not 100!) Regarding GOODS trains, it's 101.1% of the time!

Nelson, I still see your crossed out 15 16 17 and 18, and I never cease to be gobsmacked by the absolutely top class standard of your work. Those locomotives may be fictitious technically, but they truly are an absolute work of art. In terms of BCDR livery, if you visit Headhunters Railway Museum in Enniskillen, you will see actual Queen's Quay paint as the background of the BCDR crest on the wall. The livery on 148 at Downpatrick us also as authentic as it gets, as is the lettering and lining. I was recently asked if the lining on the RPSI Whitehead set is authentic for the UTA. The answer is no, and that was deliberate, as the aim was to make the carriages look "UTA-ish" without being actual UTA, as that body never owned any of them. If you look at the unrestored end of the Golfer's Saloon at Downpatrick, you will see faint traces of actual UTA lining, one straw (not yellow) line edged in red. Incidentally, only loco hauled stock was lined - not railcars which were plain green. The shade of green on the RPSI set, the UTA crest in Enniskillen, and several preserved buses is correct.