jhb171achill

Reminds me of a phone call my late aunt got once. Let's call her Olive, and her equally elderly friend (the caller) was Marion. My aunt was at the time about 91, and her friend Marion was about 88 and in the early stages of Alzheimers. (Both have now gone to their reward!). Ringgggg Ringgg Aunt Olive "Hello?" Marion "Ohhhhh I've got terrible news!" Olive "What? What's happened? Is that Marion?" Marion "Yes, yes, it's me.....Did you hear - did you hear - Olive's dead!" Olive "What?" Marion "Olive...you know Olive...she's dead!" Olive, thinking quickly "Where'd you hear that?" Marion "Dunno...dunno, but isn't that awful bad news!" Olive, eyes raised to the ceiling "Yeah, I suppose so...." Marion "Just thought I'd tell you, I'll have to run now. Robert* hasn't come back yet, I dunno where he's got to... He went out....anyway...Bye for now!" Olive "Bye, Marion............................" (* Robert, her hubby, had been dead 12 years...) Ye couldn't make it up. I'm going to bed now.

Their ballast is very realistic....................................................................!!

There. Dinner swallowed. Now, let's see.... Until the early sixties, CIE had continued the GSR's station colours, just like its grey loco livery. This was usually a dark green, not unlike what they would put on carriages and buses; the GSR had this at an early stage lone before it adorned anything on wheels. As far as I can gather there was no connection - dark green was a popular colour for woodwork back in the day. Upper panels and windows were a cream colour - possibly white in some cases, though the pigments in older paints tended to "yellow" them a bit, so things painted white didn't stay that way. Green and cream was to be seen in faded form on many an unrepainted building or doorframe well into the 1970s and even 80s on long-disused water towers. Around 1961-5, various experimental liveries were tried out. In West Cork and on the Valentia line at a few stations, a bright red and cream scheme was introduced. In the case of the former, this was very famously applied just before closure! I don't think it extended to more than a few stations. Red made an appearance on at least one of Limerick station's many signal cabins. Dublin termini and Great Victoria Street got various pastel shades of light blues and greys, details being available in various contemporary copies of the "Irish Railfans News" (see RPSI website). In the mid sixties, CIE introduced a very attractive and fresh looking scheme of black, white and about three shades of grey (no, not fifty). This was added to in main termini by the familiar black and white tiles still to be seen. For students of station livery, please note: NO PLATFORM EDGE YELLOW LINES existed ANYWHERE at this time, and white ones were exceptionally rare too! Let alone nonsensical signs about minding trains passing at speed - on platfortms at termini! Or that huge and occasionally mis-spelt signs exhorting us to mind the gap............ in those days, common sense ruled over puerile inanity! Back to paint. The "shades-of-grey" station paint scheme became absolutely the norm throughout the rest of the sixties, the seventies and eighties. By 1990, a bright but garish scheme of red, white and (predominantly) blue was in place. In the interim, Dublin area station and adopted the DART colours from about 1984/5 by degrees, which many still carry. I think - but couldn't be sure - that Lansdowne Road at least kept the grey a good bit later. I'm not sure exactly when the light grey and cream seen now was first introduced. The first time I saw it was on the DSER, though I can't be sure it wasn't on the main line first. I am sure someone here will add more accurately, but I would think this maybe appeared about ten / fifteen years ago. While on the subject, the UTA policies might be of interest. The NCC painted stations maroon and cream. The GNR had two separate paint schemes. One related to the Eastern District, one Western. The West was the INWR lines (Derry - Dundalk and branches and Bundoran), Cavan / Belturbet to Clones at least, possibly Portadown. The Western District had shades of brown, cream and tannish colour red - still to be seen - for the moment - in the innards of the ex Bundoran Junction signal cabin at Downpatrick. Their Western district had green and cream, like the GSR and CIE, often (like GSR / CIE) with the two separated on internal walls by a half inch black line. (Internally; GSR / CIE / GNR: black skirting boards, green lower panels, thin black line, cream upper panels, cream or white ceiling). The derelict Tynan station (see internet, don't trespass!) STILL retains its original Western District paint inside and out (what's left of it!). The UTA started painting everything in the same type of dark green, but with a slatey white sort of colour externally, cream inside. Often, many features were picked out in red, especially on the Derry Road and NCC, less so GVS - Dundalk. I'm not sure they bothered repaiting the Warrenpoint line stations at all, as I remember a very derelict Dublin Bridge Station in Newry, post closure, in GNR paintwork. On some stations, the UTA used a light turquoise blue with - I think - light grey or white for a short time in the late 60s. CIE either continued the old GSR bilingual enamel signs, or made their own black on white ones from the mid 60s. A few old pre-1925 ones remained, now black letters on white. Now, of course, there are a number of varieties of station signs, the latest a pleasing continental style white on blue. the UTA painted station signs yellow with black lettering. If I think of anything more I'll post. Many of the colour railway books of the last ten years will show up a lot of this in great detail.

Not sure about buildings, though I think locos and rolling stock are well covered. Gimme a minute till I have me dinner and I'll put down a few thoughts.

Gentlemen I need to thin out the Catacombs Upstairs, and to this end I offer the following: I have the following for sale, both of which fill significantly sized brown folders. 1. The original contract between the GNR(I) and the Post Office for the use of telegraphy / telegram equipment by the railway. This lists every single townland the GNR served and is of great interest to anyone interested in signalling and telegraphs, a much-ignored part of railway history. The original document dates back to 1858, pre-GNR days, and is supplemented by various other documents taking the story up to 1909. 2. The entire file and contract relating the UTA / NIR spoil trains, the last normal steam operation in Ireland. This includes correspondence relating to working practices, wagons, their allocation and repairs. All of the plans and arrangements for the very last ever steam train are included, 2nd May 1970. Much other valuable information is included, such as correspondence between the Stormont Government, NIR, train crews and the Blue Circle Cement Co., Magheramorne. A fascinating file relating to Ireland's last ever regular company steam workings. Given the historical significance of the above, I would ask for €30 for the Post Office Telegraphs contract and supporting documentation, and €50 for the Magheramorne stuff. Postage at cost; pickup may be arranged in Dublin. I also have a large amount of 1930s traffic circulars of GSR & GNR origin. If someone offered me €40 for the lot I'd be happy with that.

Never mind Lent, we'd all happily give everything up for ever if we could spend time "playing" with that layout! Absolutely top class. Leslie, now we know why your wagons smell of coffee, green tea, and cappuccino! :-)

Superb!!!! I need to get to that layout. I missed out a footplate ride to Lismore; I might just be able to do it there!

All adds to a post I made elsewhere about in the past most passenger trains hardly had two carriages the same. I could have added to that the four reasons this was so: (1) whatever was usable went into traffic (2) all couplings on ALL railway vehicles were he same; now, hardly any two carriage types have the same coupling - a seriously retrograde step. (3) The sheer variety! As recently as the mid 1980s CIE had six or more varieties of wooden framed stock plus Cravens, plus Mk 2 and Mk 3 sets. Now, its two types of loco hauled coach (100% of which only operate, one type each, on 2 lines (Belfast & Cork)), three types of local railcars and ICRs! (And no, the fact that some are 3 car and some 5 just doesn't cut it for variety!). (4) Going back to the above, many vehicles in all companies were quite simply, like above, one-offs! Or there were maybe 2 or 3 of the type.... The GSR Pullman cars, for example, never operated as single train. They had one in each service, along with a motley collection of everything else from then-modern "Bredins" to ancient six wheelers of many numerous types.

I may have info in the Catacombs upstairs. Must delve......

Exactly. The UTA would go on to repaint their share in their lined black livery if they intended to keep them. Meantime, at least one or two simply had the "G N R" painted out. CIE did the same - while they repainted none in their grey, and didn't renumber any either into a CIE series, they would just leave them as they were and paint out the lettering but leave the number. Thus, for a very short time, a black northerner would appear among grey southerners in Broadstone, on the DSER and the odd foray down the Cork line. The stencils were simply to temporarily denote ownership until the loco concerned was scrapped (in CIE's case), or either scrapped or retained (in the UTA's case). The majority, of course, of all GNR locos, including their 4.4.0 classes, were unlined black. Blue was only for passenger and some mix traffic engines. No GNR tank locos were ever blue.

You know there were two different types of rivets in J26 smokeboxes, Harry. One type were installed by fitters from Inchicore, others Ballyfermot.

Looks great. Beware copying RPSI Cravens colour, or the blue used by the UTA on 111 and 115 in the late 60s for a very short period; these are much lighter. I simply mention this because of the perception occasionally found that the RPSI livery is broadly GNR - it isn't; it's inspired by it (and very well it looks too in my opinion). Actual GNR railway blue, as applied to trams, the MAK loco and railcars and carriages, can still be seen on the Fintona tram at Cultra. What's on those excellent models above, as will be seen, is very considerably darker, which is correct. In reality, when weathered even slightly, it looked a few shades short of navy.

The stencilling started to appear after the GNR was divided between CIE and the UTA; it would thus be from very late 1958 onwards, rather than earlier. Some tenders received the stencils on both sides like that, but others received them once on the buffer beam only. I never saw any evidence of two on the buffer beam or a loco, nor two on the end of a railcar or carriage. The stencils disappeared as vehicles were repainted into CIE green (or in a few later cases, directly into black'n'tan) or UTA dark brunswick green - for obvious reasons. The UTA, indeed, had an interim solution - some carriages and railcars remained in GNR dark blue and cream, but had the large "G N R" lettering and numerals painted out along with the GNR crest, but not yet repainted in green. The UTA number would be applied in UTA style, with the UTA roundel, and occasionally a front yellow "wasp" panel as well, until full repainting took place. Incidentally, on the subject of GNR livery, it is worth pointing out that the blue carried by GNR buses, and today's RPSI "Cravens", is NOT the blue the GNR had on railway conveyances! The German diesel loco, the Fintona and Howth trams, and railcars and carriages had a much darker blue, almost navy. Unlike the RPSI Cravens, which to be fair, nobody ever pretended WERE in GNR livery, there was no blue band above window level - the cream went all the way to gutter level. The UTA's short lived mid-1960s "GNR section" livery on some AEC cars was also not at all GNR livery. It was quite a light blue, if anything marginally lighter than the RPSIs, with cream, but also a blue band above, and a silver roof (which got dirty grey very quickly). I remember 111 and 115 in this form. Actual GNR dark blue carriage paint can be seen on the Fintona tram at Cultra.

Nelson, your videoing is as good as your models! Fantastic layouts there.

Fascinating to watch something of this quality coming together. It will be a masterpiece.

It reminds me of an earlier post I made at some stage, pointing out that until the "Supertrain" and Hunslet Enterprise era (early 70s), a train with no two carriages alike was common, and the norm in some places, whereas a train of uniform stock was almost unknown. jhb171Senior recalled being at Stranorlar on a day when there were a couple of excursions plus a service train which would normally have three trains, but was strengthened to six. The service train had two railcars trailing four carriages, and they were labouring hard as the train was packed. One excursion was a motley collection of three railcars and three steam carriages, while the other was a steam engine with about seven bogies and a guard's van. As far as he could ascertain, no two vehicles were alike! I saw a CIE train in the 1970s leaving Port Laoise with a pair of 141s up front; the same was the case, almost - I think there might have been two Cravens - the rest was one each of three varieties of laminate, one Park Royal and one Bredin! A Dutch van was at one end and a tin van at the other! And my only ever non-RPSI or IRRS run from Limerick to Ballina saw 147 hauling two laminates, each of a different design, and a rickety and filthy tin van........ Ah! the memories of an oul wan.

I have a notion that it started life as a K15 open 3rd. I'd have to check. A further dim flicker in the back of what passes as a mind suggests that it had another incarnation in between, or possibly afterwards. Rebuilding of coaches, often one-offs, from one thing to another was common in old days. All that was required was a decent joiner in the works. The iconic MGWR dining car, for example, ended up as an ordinary coach, having had three separate lives, including substantially re-arranged window spacings and - I think - different bogies. Even in the 1950s and 60s, six wheelers were being altered as all-van, and the unique Park Royal driving car for AEC railcars on the Tramore line, as well as the unique laminate conversion passenger brake for the Loughrea line (with storage heaters) are well known.

Absolutely top class work.

That Lime St thing is amazing! Anything Irish?

A fantastic layout in all respects.

Tony, this is fascinating information. People who knew this working environment intimately, and still have the recall to describe it accurately and in detail like that are getting fewer and further between. Did you tip Selwyn off about this man? I'm sure you've done this, but I would say generally, that if any of us know people who remember the old days on the railway, when they carried all sorts of goods (and "passengers" instead of "customers"!), we should get out there and record them. Such work practices ceased entirely on all lines in the mid 1970s; that's forty years ago. In Omagh, they were by then gone by a further ten years.

Wow! Now THAT brings back memories!!!

Thank you, Rich.... I suppose when I've lived through much of "history", I might as well regurgitate it! Seriously, though, I know that every layout is its creator's world, and we all have different emphases. Some like just running round a circle, and why not; but for those who DO crave accuracy, it is important, I feel, for information to be available for them to achieve it. There's many a model which in one way or another isn't at all accurate, or is decorated in a way assumed to be near enough, but in fact so wide of the mark that to those who remember them very familiarly, they are very odd looking indeed. If the modeller knows, but is happy enough or even prefers it his way, fair enough, but if he wants accuracy there will be some sort of info, somewhere, which people will see. Many of my posts are inspired by what I have seen myself, as my own more vivid personal memories go back to the early 1960s. Others are inspired by seeing a highly accurate layout where it is very obvious that the owner has gone to extraordinary lengths to achieve absolute accuracy, but there may be one glaring - but commonly repeated - inaccuracy. Yellow snails on tenders spring to mind. You know what I mean! Anyway, it keeps me off the streets and out of bars.....

You do indeed get the odd one, Broithe..... mostly, though, straight.

That is SO SERIOUSLY GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!