jhb171achill

Do we know when?

I've seen your pics also Mayner, absolutely top class stuff, looks really authentic.

If it's an oil burner it should be all-grey, not black (though dirt / oil deposits might make it look black!). Also the common but obvious error that "snail" is yellow. Snails were never yellow on steam engines, be they grey, black or green - this was Whitehead invention when 461 was first restored about 1990 or so. The RPSI had a black livery with yellow snail on 461 and 184. The loco number in unlined yellow, yes, but the "snail" should always, without exception, be pale green lined in gold. CIE simply didn't have transfers in yellow for steam engines. By the time the yellow ones for 121s appeared, no remaining steam engine would ever see a paintbrush again - within a year it would be the scrapper's torch. I would say the stark white circle (and it's interesting to see a model with this - all credit to the modeller for this aspect!) would have ended its white career half way into its first run!

I've seen that stuff before but I don't remember where it is, or what layout - anyone?

Drool drool drool.......!!!!! That C & L stuff is absolutely amazing! Fantastic!

"Party Rosette"? Glenderg, political comment ban notwithstanding, I will offer to be your election agent. And I will pay my water charges if the water is brought to southside Dublin in long trains of bogie tankers hauled by Lough Swilly tender engines.

A double decker turnip tin would indeed be a good model! Looking at the detail, probably somewhat more fiddly to scratchbuild than it looks.....

This shows how much can be done without spending a fortune. I'm enjoying following this....

Lined dark green, weathered....? Looks more GSR grey, apart from red NCC coupling rods... Seriously excellent model, though. Lovely stuff!

Yes, that variant is a "half way house"; upper orange yet to be applied. A bit like the occasional loco in those days with new "set of points" logo instead of the CIE one, but as yet no "tippex". Or current ICRs with no logos, or the writing but no "flag".

I see now - I thought he meant a 3" line ABOVE the windows until I re-read it! To clarify. B'n'T inception until early 1990s. Then white line below added, with 6" white above altered to thinner white + orange by degrees. The odd one in original style was still about into the late 90s.

All the Cravens had the same 6" band, stevie. That's just the light. All that was done to them was - like the BR vans which had a thinner line due to the design of the roof - was addition of the white line below. A few years later, an orange line started being added above window level, then the white line there was narrowed to make room for it.

The Cravens obviously had standard B'n'T for most of their lives, and probably all of their lives in a few examples. Rather than the "tippex" livery, they received a specific livery which no oth vehicles carried, in IE times, with the first being repainted this probably about 1990 or so. This leafy the basic B'n'T the same, but instead of the broad white line above the windows, a thinner one plus an orange one were substituted. Only one or two ever got a white line below the windows too, and they didn't retain it long. Similarly, one at least, and possibly two, got the "set-of-points" logo at each end, again for a temporary period.

I have that book, Weshty, and P 71 is GNR steam in Enniskillen....

The "misty" one is from the top of the tram, and the smoke is from detonators, as the tram leaves Fintona for the very last time. The other is of the loco being attached to it. The tram had no proper coupling, and the horse's harness wasn't the best fit for the loco. So, as Senior (who organised the move from there to Omagh, and the tram's preservation) said, "it was attached to the engine by all sorts of bits of chain and things - whatever seemed to hold it". Ohhh, what a great day our Health & Safety Taliban would have had! No day glo, of course, and several hangers-on hitching a lift with Senior and other railwaymen. Senior travelled on the tram to the junction, and on the loco footplate to Omagh from where another loco took it forward - very slowly - to Belfast.

Any chance of posting the picture?

And finally, for today, here are two pictures, neither of great quality, though I have the negatives which will certainly yield better. Quiz Question: explain both pictures. The apparent mist or glare is not that - it's smoke. The first prize for a correct answer is a free ride in a 450 class. Second prize is two free rides in one, and third prize is an annual ticket for one. Booby prize is a gift of a full three car set.

Early 1940s. Anyone fancy a doing up the Derry Central today, and maybe the tram to the Giant's Causeway? The Derry Central train is composed entirely of old Belfast & Northern Counties Rly coaching stock, as shown by the tell-take design feature of straight sides. Some of these managed to see UTA service into the 1960s.

Next, it's still 1940. This time, jhb171senior decides that a free pass from Amiens Street to Burtonport and back is an appropriate way to while away some time. He photographed the one coach on the train, but didn't set foot in it, of course. A teeth-and-bone-shaking footplate ride was better, at a breakneck 20 miles per hour: one of the big tanks to Letterkenny from Derry, and a footplate run on the last operational 4.8.0 tender engine from there to the Wilds of Burtonport. Oh, to turn back the clock....

Way back now, to 1940. First up, jhb171senior/senior's photo of original Dublin & Kingstown Railway track stored at Inchicore. This immensely historically important artefact was donated, at Senior's behest, to the fledgling Witham Street museum in Belfast, and should now be at Cultra. Anyone know if it is? Or if - God forbid - it's got lost in storage there or no one knows what it is?

We'll keep our guilty secret quiet, Warbonnet, or they'll start emailing us pictures of NIR CAFs. Shhhh....

Exactly, StevieB, that's what I was referring to in the first sentence. It wasn't "tippex livery" as such; this is generally taken to mean "supertrain" with white lines above and below the black. "Supertrain" was never applied to any non-air-conditioned coaching stock. What your picture shows is normal old black'n'tan (pre-supertrain, dating from 1962) with the simple addition of a single white line at waist level. The old black'n'tan livery already had a (thicker) white line above window level. I believe that up to 3 or 4 Park Royals received this, only in the last couple of years, and only to be seen on their very last duty on Limerick - Rosslare. There could even have been as few as two of them. One of these, incidentally, is No. 1944, preserved in the DCDR and currently undergoing restoration. I believe it will be outshopped in late 1950s green.

Very true indeed, Warbonnet!!! I'll retreat quietly back into the 17th century where I belong! When steam was steam, and trains were trains.... and there were still carriages about which the Stone Age settlers had left behind....

It's just about into the IE era all right, but Park Royals never received either "supertrain" OR the later "tippex" liveries - all remained Black and Tan until the end. The last 3 or 4 which survived into the early 1990s (on Waterford - Rosslare duty) got a single tippex line below the Windows, but that was it. The locomotive simply hadn't been repainted yet. Engines in CIE "supertrain" livery were commonplace well into the early 90s. The railway was cash-strapped at the time (quelle surprise) so rebranding was slow. In fact the introduction of the "tippex" white lines was just to avoid a proper re-livery exercise, as the basic orange and black colours remained exactly the see and in exactly the same place. The BR vans were initially all left in B'n'T as well, but into the 90s most ended up with a singke tippex line below waist level. For fans of supertrain era liveries, you can maintain accuracy and still get away with operating them on a layout up to mid 90s, albeit mixed in with tippex-era stuff.

One hears talk of it, and I think there is a trial crop in Co Cork somewhere. But IE scrapped wagons, sidings and everything rail related as quick as they possibly could to avoid involvement in the future!