jhb171achill

Well, both BnM and Luas did eventually! The MGWR bought the Royal Canal when building the line to Mullingar to save land acquisition costs, and wipe out competition at the same time. Clever move back in the 1840s....

Tis very true, Weshty! And I'd be in the seat behind you whinging about AEC railcars, Bandon tanks, and No 90! ;-) ....But I WOULD be IN that seat.....!

Gregory Campbell could translate, maybe....

Correct, minister. As a parallel but separate issue is the fact that it does seem fairly clear that official standards are lacking - or else the public's perception is. Both have one common denominator - the education system. Either teach it correctly and effectively, or give it up....

They absolutely weren't, Minister! While the GSR was still solvent and a private company, it was clear that things weren't getting any better for them financially, and the government gave them little option. Obviously, they also took over the Dublin United Tramways Co., though this WAS solvent. Sometimes governments can put pressure on private companies without actually taking them over. However, the GSR directors apparently were being convinced that by taking on these two other entities, all might be good....

All railways got a share of a compensation fund, the GSWR included. It's important to remember that the funding requested by railways back then was always intended to be one-off, as the concept of state ownership of railways didn't figure anywhere. Railways were private companies, in which investors were able to buy shares and get paid dividends. A bit like telecoms companies today, or chemical companies. They were run for profit first, provision of service second. It was only when road transport started eating into profits, ultimately making them financially unviable, that ONGOING state aid was sought. And that wasn't until thirty years after the GSWR had ceased to exist. Remember the GSR wasn't a UTA or CIE style amalgamation - it was a private company amalgamation. The GSR remained as a private company throughout its existence, and even CIE was formed in the same circumstances. CIE was formed in 1945, but it wasn't nationalised until 1950, as it became clear that it was no longer financially viable as a business model. The births of both the GSR and CIE were intended to capitalise on the concept of economy of scale, rather than stave off actual bankruptcy. In the case of CIE, the Grand Canal Conpany was financially insecure though. (I've got financial stuff of theirs somewhere in the Catacombs). Within each constituent company, there would have been PARTS that lost money - eg within the MGWR the Achill, Killala and Clifden lines - but overall these companies made money and paid dividends. Within the GSWR, it's likely that some remote branches like Kenmare were an overall drain on resources, but were cross-subsidised by the more profitable parts of an overall solvent business.

An interesting take on it all. Yes, it's quite impossible to surmise anything, but the above would have made for an interesting overall situation. I suspect that BR / CIE itself or an equivalent would have eaten the lot and created a single nationalised entity about the same time it happened in Britain - and I'd say that would have happened whether Ireland had become a fully independent country or had been part of the U.K. What happened next would have been dictated by whether the government of the day was inclined to close lines or look after them. We could have had our own Beeching, or maybe not. One thing is likely - the artificially brought about lack of railways in the north west wouldn't have happened without a border. This would probably have left Dundalk - Enniskillen - Foyle Road, and Omagh to Portadown open today. Populated by dull tin railcars, of course.

If the Waterford & Tramore, or West Cork lines lasted until today, they'd have been the home of 2 or 3 identical two-car 26s or 28s. "Not much interest as a layout" occurs more and more the further we get into the modern era! We can soup things up by adding things that we like, such as lots of GM's and carriages ranging from DDs back to laminates, but if anyone wanted to model Cobh station, for example, think of the contrast between an accurate model today, and one based in 1950! And Rosslare, Derry or Larne!!!

I don't have any balance sheets from the GSWR. I used to have but passed them on to someone else years and years ago. I don't remember taking the view that they were losing money overall - I would be fairly certain they were not. When railway companies here and in Britain went whinging to the government for money, it was usually more likely to be for repair to excess wartime wear and tear, reinvestment in worn out assets and so on, rather than the GNR's 1953 situation, which was essentially a bankruptcy rescue. If the the largest company in Ireland, had been losing money as long ago as that, there would have been little hope for the GNR, MGWR, DSER and NCC. Nationalisation would have occurred probably before the border appeared, leaving two state owned companies once it did. The GSR, after amalgamation, remain solvent. It was only outfits like the Listowel & Ballybunion that were not, and consequently it wasn't included in the GSR. The GSWR was solvent throughout its existence. So how serious were the GSWR directors in their ultimatum? I'd say they were serious in their assertion that they wanted loads of money for new track and the like, but were presenting a "worst case scenario" of closure of services, rather than an actual threat.

Who knows!

Well, if Ireland had remained a single jurisdiction, no border would have meant one owner nationally, whether under Irish or British rule. So no NCC, no GNR, no CDRJC, no BCDR, no GSWR, no CBSCR, no MGWR etc... Either an all Ireland UTA (in which case they probably have closed everything but Dublin - Cork) or an all Ireland CIE, meaning in either case standard designs across the island. The entire railway history would have been completely different. 141s into Derry, MPD cars in West Cork..... anything.

The green shown here was applied by CIE to: 1. Station building woodwork, footbridges and water tanks 2. Many main line and many suburban tank locos from about 1949-end of steam 3. Horse boxes 1945 onwards 4. Passenger carriages 1945-55 (lighter shade from the to the advent of B'n'T in 1962) Whether upside down or the right way up, coincidentally it's EXACTLY the same shade. Next, we see badly faded GSR maroon poking through underneath. The bits of lighter green to be seen among it all is undercoat, but coincidentally isn't a million miles off the "eau de nil". Finally, the best example I've ever seen of pristine EARLY (1925-33) GSR maroon. LMS shade was to follow from 1933 to the advent of CIE in 1945. The brown and cream GSR livery overlapped these two shades and was only applied to main line stock between about 1929 and the mid 30s. These examples were taken this afternoon from an old GSWR six wheel grounded body in a field. Due to being on private property I am not at liberty to say where. But it's in Ireland!!! The coach, plus two others, have been used as holiday homes in the past but are now derelict. I am trying to identify which carriage numbers they are. All three are six-wheelers of GSWR origin and judging by the design features would be of 1878-92 period. They appear to have been sold off by CIE in the early 1950s.

Probably not, come to think of it...

An NCC "W"? If so, no, that's a different one altogether. Both relatively modern, but it's highly unlikely NCC "W" class ones ever went behind a GNR loco in UTA days. I would completely agree that Hornby are missing a trick as Richard says....

If DFDS double their train length, Baseboard Dave's going to be busy! :-)

Working signals whether semaphore or light always add a great extra dimension of reality to a layout. One of the unique things at Tara Junction is seeing a carriage going round with a model of "The Wanderer", camera in hand, standing at an open door window in one vestibule of a Craven!

Not sure, josefstadt.... worth investigating....

Indeed, Eiretrains, forgot to mention that. That was the only locomotive WITH "supertrain" livery, but WITHOUT those lights! It should also be of interest to modellers to be aware that the latter day marker lights are way bigger than the originals. I'm not sure of exact dates (maybe someone here will know) but the marker lights as on 071s now, only came into use maybe in the early 1990s. This obviously applies to the other GMs as well.

It's mad to think of ALL the ports which either could be or were rail connected.... some aren't even ports any more! But we will always be an island.....! Rosslare (I wouldn't call that "rail-connected" now!) Arklow Dublin Drogheda Dundalk Warrenpoint Greenore Belfast Carrickfergus Portrush Derry Killybegs Burtonport Sligo Westport Galway Foynes Fenit Tralee Bantry Cork and surrounds...... Yes, I know there are more..... And actually meaningfully rail connected? One - Waterford. Just one.

While from a cultural point of view, it's a great shame that the Irish language declined so much in the 19th and 20th centuries, and in recent decades has been incorrectly seen by some as a political issue, it bred a generation of "language snobs" who mean well, certainly, but occasionally will sanctimoniously lecture the rest of us about not using it, or using it incorrectly. I knew two folks of this ilk, one with a degree of railway knowledge. He often told me that the Irish used by the CIE group of companies would, in his view, score bottom of the class in any basic school exam, with incorrect grammar and spellings abounding. His view of the Irish used by some other state agencies wasn't much better. Not bring in any position to disagree, I just sagely nodded my head..... Now, I know he meant well. I know that. In an ideal world we'd all speak many languages, and all language evolves. In 1000 years time, it's quite possible that English, Irish and Portuguese - or anything - will be long dead. CIE has variously run trains to Bré and Bri Chullain...... Hmm.

Many thanks, BSGSV. It's actually been with the publisher since last May, and effectively "in a queue" awaiting publication. I'm afraid I delayed it an initial few months as we came across just three extra photos which I felt were a MUST to include. These weren't Barry's (before his time) and I had copies but was unsure who owned the copyright - obviously they would have to be asked for permission. Thankfully the copyright owner was not only happy to do so, he told me I could use anything of his stuff in any future publication. All things being equal, I'm hoping it'll be ready for the RPSI May Tour (might do a mini-launch) and the accompanying Friday 071 trip. Fingers crossed.... With encouragement from another character who would be well know to many here, I'm working on another album of slightly earlier times. This will hopefully have as much dirty silver, late steam and green as it will have black'n'tan. The only thing is that the photos are not of the same quality, and I have already rejected out of hand some which despite Photoshopping within an inch of their lives, have deteriorated beyond redemption. A pity, because the subject matter (e.g. Banagher, Tullow) is interesting. Some black and white will feature in this one too. I'll update here when I've anything beyond the above to report!

Brilliant - you'll find that book an excellent resource. You'll get pictures in black'n'tan (a la A39 as it is now on the DCDR) with headlights, but not in all-black, or black with yellow ends. The earliest pictures I've ever seen WITH headlights is ONE of the "C"'s rebuilt as "B"'s (not the other!) and that was 1969. I can't be 100% certain, but I'd be 99% certain that no "C" or "A" had headlights before it was re-engined. You're right about the one you saw having already been rebuilt, though it would have by then acquired either the full tan side, or the "low" tan band; both were applied to rebuilds. Thus: silver, green, all-black, black with yellow ends, and SOME black'n'tan: no headlights. WITH headlights: black'n'tan, "supertrain" and "tippex" IE.

Yes, Dive, they ran like that throughout silver, green and black eras. Barry Carse's "Metrovicks" book will clarify. Same with the "C" class.

Tis indeed the case, Garfield. Or something like that; I've been told the exact details in the distant past, but I've forgotten.

When built, the "A" and "C" classes had NO lights at all above windows, and smaller marker lights. They date from the steam era, when the only light was an oil lamp attached to the front. People were expected to know to avoid trains; the idea that they must almost be floodlit (like today) was a concept for the distant future. The double headlights date from rebuilding days, thus a model of an "A" or "C" in silver livery, green or early black should not have them at all.