jhb171achill

I'd go for the leg room idea, Mayner - most MGWR survivors (to 1963 latest) were 1890s origin, a few late 80s. They were also very solidly built - though so were the GSWR ones....

Both UTA "Courtaulds" wagons, originally built by the NCC in 1922/4. The "cut down" one was exactly the same as the other - as were ALL of those cut down ones - before NIR altered them thus about 1970/1 for PW purposes. By that stage it was 6 years since they had been used for actual goods traffic.

:-)

No, it didn't have a clerestorey. It would originally have had a "flat" roof like the MGWR six wheelers stored beside it. I'll try to dig out the diagram from the GSWR carriage book I have. For modellers who have never seen it, it's important to note that it's being rebuilt as a brake first. It's original condition was as shown in the photo of its companion above.

I'd say it certainly has potential to adapt. I'm on a learning curve right now with regard to Austrian station buildings in the 1970s era! Found a good IRM type internet group who are very helpful. All too often a good layout has buildings of less accurate standard..... better to get it right, I suppose, first thing!

I would agree. They could be disguised, possibly? Also, it's a bit big for all but the largest Irish stations. Wouldn't be suitable for a branch line or country station setup.

This was rare, but did happen. There's a picture of it happening at Ennis in "Rails Through The West". I've seen a photo of a train leaving Kilmainhamwood somewhere with the usual couple of 6-wheel coaches and half a dozen cattle vans. Back in the day, a place like Kings-court is bound to have had some sort of proper facility. Naturally, in later years it might have been removed.

Mayner Yes, the shunting that day was an absolute nightmare. The RPSI train was too long for the loop, and nobody had thought about this. Added to that was the fact that the place was full of gypsum wagons! The train had to be split in two parts and reunited. However, each cloud had a silver lining. There was time for several pints.... I'd say you're right about the use of the hoods bank there for cattle. I do know that when built, cattle traffic was anticipated, thus provision must have been made initially. As you say the Midland especially was involved in that. As to the exact type of "beast" traffic, I don't know, but maybe pigs were carried. The traffic returns for the branch in the late 20s / early 30s would be interesting to see; they (and possibly other years) should be available in the Heuston (CIE) archives.

Baker was very interested in carriages and wrote a lot about the. Extremely informative. A carriage numbered 70B would be ex-CBSCR rather than GSWR. I think the one above had a number starting with 2. I have a note somewhere, so as you say, Dive, this one must have been gone by maybe 1968 at latest. On re-reading your post, do you mean "built".... for "b"... It's a pity the renumbering of vehicles into the departmental series by CIE followed no rhyme nor reason, and thus no relation to its original number! It makes things hard to trace. One of DCDR's senior and long-standing volunteers is a mine of information on these "A" numbers.

You can't really see vacuum bags, right enough - could be hidden? Anyone know? Dive - you're right about all roundels on brown being white. The container is, in fact, badly faded orange. They had originally painted their old type of container grey, but these ones were always orange - same "carriage / loco tan". There was one kicking around at the back of Whitehead site until recently - probably cleared away now. The Uniload containers were also orange, but had a white strip on them, and an all-black roundel was on this white strip, along with the word "Uniload", which was - I think but I'd need to check - in red. CIE never painted any containers brown.

Nice, but they need grey chassis... I like the fact that one, having a "D" suffix to the number, is intended to be of DSER origin. And they're the right way up. I had to turn the computer upside down and stand on me head...

I don't think this is one of mine, but it's of late 1970s interest.

I should clarify - I meant mid 90s before ALL were done, and also that they didn't start them straight away in 1987 like the others stock.... The rebranding generally was from 1987 as you say, when IE was form, but for some reason while locomotives, Mk 2 and Mk 3 stock hot the "tippex" ASAP, they didn't seem to start on the Cravens for a while. Mind you when they did, it was done reasonably quickly. I've pics of a Craven still in the old style in 1996, but they were extremely few and far between then. I saw one at Connolly, I think, in the middle of others which had been "tippexed". The BR vans were amended only by the addition of a single tippex line below the waist, and this likewise didn't happen immediately after 1987. More than a few "A", 141 & 181 class locomotives acquired the new "set of points" logo on ends and sides engine getting the white stripes. Money was tight and full IE livery would await the next repaint. All of the 121s were repainted fully. Thus, livery wise, in say 1993 we had - Mk 2 & 3 stock: with and without tippex Cravens: black'n'tan and tippex A class: Supertrain, supertrain with IE logo, and IE full tippex livery 141 / 181: as above 121: CIE or tippex Quite a variety!

You can get them for little more than half that..... and he's wrong about the livery - it would have been well into the 90s before they got the tippex waistline and orange stripe under the cantrail....

I'm astonished that it didn't sell... I have two, boxed and unused, in reserve for a possible future layout. Had I only one, I'd have snapped that one up in no time. I just need the two. I can't remember what I paid new - whatever the going rate was at the time....

I haven't a picture, but you couldn't have taken one. She was hemmed in very effectively! the place was extremely crowded. The lighting was poor too.

The "C" ones would have had their days very numbered indeed - in a train, they were probably en route to wherever they were going to be scrapped. In 1977/8, Templemore and Thurles sidings were full of them, as were Cork and Limerick.

As far as the shape is concerned, there were variations; you can see that the two shown are cut down to differing extents. The reason for the cutting was indeed for unloading. Though, as I said, many remained in UTA red/brown and were NOT cut down. When in goods traffic, none were cut down, nor had "C" prefixes. But they were just as tatty looking! Thus - another point. If modelling UTA goods wagons, or pre 1955 CIE, pristine models just look totally, completely, wrong. Weather them within an inch of their lives!

Absolutely great news! I hope there were no whingers there....! Well done, lads.

The LMS NCC used larger letters, GSR like, on the main body side, until about the wartime. Afterwards (similar practice on English LMS) it said "LMSNCC" where "NIR" can be seen, in the same style and position. The UTA copied this, replacing "LMSNCC" with "UT". The so-called Courtaulds wagons, which incidentally were UTA wagons, NOT private owner, were full height sides the entire time they were in goods traffic and UTA ownership. When the UTA abandoned goods in 1965, the overwhelming majority were scrapped, leaving maybe a dozen or 20 for PW purposes. About half of these we cut down as shown. While in the distant past, low sided angled ended opens were built by different companies, none survived into this era on any line. If you model a wagon in the style shown in the picture, it's PW use only, and inevitably will be hauled by a filthy "Jeep" or one of those three English Electric shutters which NIR obtained in 1969. About 1970, I would estimate there were no more than a dozen left. NIR painted some of those, plus at least one NCC goods brake, and one GNR goods brake, in the very pale grey seen on the one on the right. But some retained UTA red/brown, and some retained the full height sides. Both Whitehead and Downpatrick have still, I think, got examples of these. Once NIR appeared out of the ashes of the UTA in 1968, the few wagons they intended to gain for the above purposes had a "C" prefix added to their number. So an open wagon number 234 by the UTA, became C234. This is a bit like the "A" suffix used by CIE, though in their case a new number accompanied it. Both CIEs "A" suffix, and NIRs "C" prefix were for departmental use. The old bogie balks wagon on the DCDR, of NIR origin, has a number starting with "C".

The earlier standard CIE brake vans had vertical planking. Later ones sheet steel, though many earlier ones were rebuilt - or just PART rebuilt - in steel. When this happened, superstructure of body tended to be steel with balconies remaining wooden. Livery details: 1. Up to 1963: grey, with stencilled flying snails. 2. 1963 - 1970: grey, lighter than pre 1955, with roundel. On "H" vans and palvans, tan surround, white letters. On brake vans and opens, all white. 3. Post 1970: brown, with all-white roundel.

All three of those designations "X" = scrap and "C" = condemned, were added after (recent) withdraw and have no relevance to the running numbers or company origin. They are something like lot numbers for scrapping.

Nowadays, a goods train will almost never have more than one type of vehicle (I aim this post particularly at younger readers, as older will remember). A train might consist of 18 bogie flats with or without timber, containers, or whatever, or a line of pockets. Naturally, no brake van at the end. This is the reverse of what it was like before fitted trains. Pre 1975, when loose coupled was the order of the day, a brake van was essential - thus a train of loose-coupled four wheeled wagons on a layout based in the pre-fitted era cannot consist of a loco and a line of wagons. Having a brake van at the end is the same as having a locomotive at the front; if it's not there, the train ain't moving anywhere. Now it's different if they are fitted - like the beet four wheelers in their later days, but four wheeled wagons were never fitted en mass in Ireland anyway, back in the day. So if modelling pre-1975, a brake van is a must. But also variety. Not only did trains not consist of a line of the same type of wagon, many trains rarely had two wagons alike. Take the UTA. Ex BCDR stock got mixed up with ex NCC stock, and within this family were some quite modern York Road adaptations of LMS designs (please don't say "mainland"; as well as being technically quite inaccurate and offensive to many, it's narrow gauge!) from Derby. Add to that the passenger-profile "Brown Vans", and the fact that other NCC stock was old enough to be of bncr origin, and you've a mixture. The UTA was anti-rail from the outset and saw no future in any sort of rail traffic, so they built few if any wagons of their own. Now along comes 1958, and ex GNR stock is thrown in as well. To add to the modeller's nightmare, there wasn't even a uniform livery. Like the GNR, the UTA painted some wagons brown if they were fitted, i.e. they could be added to the back of a passenger train. BCDR stock was largely withdrawn, but a few items survived to get UTA markings, often just painted on the left hand lower end on top of the very dark BCDR grey, with their initials still showing. Some, like NCC stock, were repainted, or partly so. The NCC / UTA grey was the same as British LMS grey since the LMS owned the NCC. Once the GNR was absorbed, partial repairs, or poor quality paint which barely mask the large "G N" was the norm. Wagons received "N" added to their numbers, as did carriages, though the letter was first, eg N145. The UTA used "UT" rather than "UTA" on all wagons without exception. It was placed lower left, like the NCC had done latterly, and in the same font. Now to CIE. GSWR, DSER and MGWR rolling stock was commonplace right through the fifties. While they we properly painted, this didn't happen too often and many were almost as tatty as those on the UTA. In the early fifties, the odd one still had "G S" but at a guess this was pre-maybe-1951. The. When the palvans and H vans appeared, the old stock was mixed in with them for a while until they gradually disappeared. The last wooden vans of (late) GSWR or GNR that I saw in traffic were maybe about 1971. Even then they were few. The GSR inside-framed horizontally planked goods vans were the last "pre-H" ones in traffic with some surviving to be brown, and not withdrawn until about 1975. So, a goods train heading to Portadown in 1965 could have (and I saw them often) something like this: Locomotive NCC brown van CIE H GSR wooden van CIE palvan BCDR van Bullied corrugated GNR van with flying snail GNR van with UT in faded paint Three grey bubbles Flat wagon with load under tarpaulin CIE H GNR open wagon with snail GNR open wagon with "G N" Bullied corrugated NCC origin goods van in UTA markings Courtaulds (NCC) open Ex NCC brake van (as per the one at Downpatrick); GNR goods van (no black chassis and ironwork, cream porch or white roof; all these are entirely incorrect!) - either in GNR, UTA or CIE livery; or CIE standard 20 or 30 ton van, grey - with snail or roundel. With roundel, wasp stripes on ducket, with snail wasps stripes less likely. If this imaginary train was in the south or west instead of rattling through Dundalk, expect cattle wagons too, and one of the few surviving GSWR brake vans - these remained grey and snail-adorned to the end. GNR brake vans were rarely seen outside their own territory, though very occasional sightings were made. I hope is provides some inspiration. Dunluce Castle, of this community, seem to have a v eclectic collection of scratch built stuff - this is entirely appropriate. A line of Hornby vans, all uniform, whizzing round behind a 141, will loo impressive on a layout, but in reality - for those interested in accuracy - such things never happened. Below is a UTA walk. Showing the poor paint. This was a cut down Courtaulds wagon, which were originally a reddish brown as is still evident. It's now 1975, and this beast is parked up at Antrim with a few classmates. As you can see from the strapping, it was originally a full height wagon. About a dozen were cut down like this by NIR about 1969 as ballast wagons. NIR ever ran goods trains. Incidentally, on a livery note, you can er how myths about black ironwork arise. Imagine this picture in black and white, the ironwork gets rusty long before the paint fades on the wooden bits, thus a B'n'W photo will make it look darker. Courtaulds wagons had red/brown paint on ironwork, and the watery NIR light grey paint was on ironwork too. I hope this is of help.

I'd better not go on that train then, Broithe. I'd confuse them and give them fits of conniptions, screaming fits and heeby-geebys.

There was very little loose coupled goods at this stage.