Container flat wagons

[Thameslink]

I have recently purchased a set of IRM Bell and B+I Line containers but don't have suitable flat wagons on which to run them. Do you folks have any recommendations? I have approached Chris Dyer but he is out of stock on these at the moment and our good friends at IRM don't appear to have any in stock either.

[murphaph]

The spoils wagons are the same. Just pull the spoils containers off them. If none left on IRM webshop try Marks Models

[flange lubricator]

The spoils are suitable and are still available  https://irishrailwaymodels.com/collections/ie-spoil-wagons/products/cie-ir-42-flat-spoil-wagons-bundle

[murphaph]

The bogies need to be painted brown if you want them entirely prototypical with those earlier containers however. If that bothers you.

[DiveController]

The recent announcement of the NIR coaching stock reminded me that springs etc were painted in different colors to the bogie itself as far as back as the 70s whereas in my minds eye I see this as as a post millennium development. Probably not on CIE though where everything was pretty uniform at that time. 

[jhb171achill]

Correct. NIR were at that a long time ago, but on IE it’s comparatively very much more recent. It was plain brown bogies on non-passenger stock, and plain black on carriages. 

The 2600-class had plain light grey bogies from Day 1, but that’s a separate story.

[johnfromoz]

Following on this discussion, approximately what year in the ‘modern era’ (whatever that is??) do we think the black painted bogies and blue springs began to appear on IE freight flats etc?
 

John

Edited September 11, 2021 by johnfromoz
spelling

[murphaph]

There are certainly pics in the Irish Railway Rambler book of Mk3 stock with yellow painted springs dating from the late 80's at the latest. At least some Mk2 stock had red painted springs around the same time.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, johnfromoz said:

Following on this discussion, approximately what year in the ‘modern era’ (whatever that is??) do we think the black painted bogies and blue springs began to appear on IE freight flats etc?
 

John

I couldn’t be certain but it was well after the last of the fertiliser wagons. I guess about 20 years ago? Maybe a bit less?

[DiveController]

7 hours ago, murphaph said:

There are certainly pics in the Irish Railway Rambler book of Mk3 stock with yellow painted springs dating from the late 80's at the latest. At least some Mk2 stock had red painted springs around the same time.

Normally we'd be asking for a pic in evidence but since its in a book,  page 90 of my Rambler certainly has what appears to be springs in red if its not rust but I'm struggling with yellow on the Mk3 springs to be honest 

EDIT:

Looks like you're right Phil. Brand new Mk3 7140 in Intercity colors p98 does indeed appear to have yellow springs

Edited September 11, 2021 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

When the Mk 3s were being introduced to traffic, I was in Inchicore one day (1986, I think?) but there were still a few of them not yet finished. While the bodies were in a light green undercoat, there were bogies about the place with all manner of colours on various components; they were in "factory" colour - whatever way they were when they came out of the Murphy Models packet. But those entering traffic had the bogies in black. 

Possibly a few escaped with replaced components which hadn't been painted the "livery" colour - this is almost certainly what's behind the current idea where increasingly bogies are not brown like the wagon they are under, but a mix of the colours of their components.

Maybe some are even in Tyrone or Mayo colours today.......

[DiveController]

 

Full disclosure, 7140 is 'on trial' with 188 and 7602 from Inchicore to Ballybrophy before entering service but is specially captioned as" the last of the first batch" and "the finished article" by the author Michael McMahon.

All that said, it is hard to find examples of Mk3 with any colors showing on the bogies in service (if anyone has some, please post). Likewise if you look at the NIR Mk2 stock in the 1970s the known colored details are substantially muted in color within a few months of entering service

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

When the Mk 3s were being introduced to traffic, I was in Inchicore one day (1986, I think?) but there were still a few of them not yet finished. While the bodies were in a light green undercoat, there were bogies about the place with all manner of colours on various components; they were in "factory" colour - whatever way they were when they came out of the Murphy Models packet. But those entering traffic had the bogies in black. 

Possibly a few escaped with replaced components which hadn't been painted the "livery" colour - this is almost certainly what's behind the current idea where increasingly bogies are not brown like the wagon they are under, but a mix of the colours of their components.

Maybe some are even in Tyrone or Mayo colours today.......

When IRM first did their models I have to say that I like seeing the CADs highlighting with different colors the component feature of the wagons, sadly all gone now with no end user input wanted (or needed I suspect)

Edited September 11, 2021 by DiveController

[murphaph]

Kevin I think you've seen this pic yourself already judging by the comments

That is definitely in revenue service I'd say. There's a few miles of dirt on it I'd say.

[DiveController]

You're right and I had been looking for that to check and definitely yellow springs. SO do we dare say that there were some components on CIE coaching stock like NIR that did not specifically fit into the single under frame and bogies color rule as seemed to be the case with freight?

I do love that livery and we do need at least more more example as that's 7140 again, but I expect that they did exist like this and it was lost in pictures in service tbh. The coach washes covered the area above the platform pretty well but I'm not certain how well they cleaned off the under frame areas with a mix of grease brake dust and God know what else.

Edited September 11, 2021 by DiveController

[murphaph]

Here's a mk2d with all red springs:

https://paulinemckenna.smugmug.com/BW/1993/Ireland-/i-73VNBbh

Some mk3's appeared to have had these blue things, perhaps some sort of damper fitted also:

https://paulinemckenna.smugmug.com/BW/1993/Ireland-/i-CFv8xt9

Mk1 GSV with blue springs:

https://paulinemckenna.smugmug.com/BW/1996/Ireland-1996/i-pr74833

Another mk2d with red springs:

 

Freshly painted mk2b:

https://paulinemckenna.smugmug.com/BW/1996/Ireland-1996/i-2S6qWjC

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2021 by murphaph

[johnfromoz]

Thanks lads, I am repurposing some of my spoils to container flats, and other than maybe some weathering, don’t particularly want to repaint the bogies (I view IRM stuff as collectable in the future, if not already) so good to know I can model containers from last 15 yrs or so. I guess this would rule out Bell 40’s.

John

[Rob]

Bell 40's would have been well gone by then-  some lingered on in a 'fallen flag' status for a while after ('Bell' wording painted out but rest of the container still the same). See Ernie's photo from Limerick 2000.

[murphaph]

When did the fallen flag Bells start appearing?

Would they ever have appeared in a train of fallen flag Bells or only individually?

[Rob]

They were around by April 1998- see photo from Colm O'Callaghan's excellent book 'lrish Traction Iarnród Éireann'.

I never saw more than one in a single train but may have been, given the amount of Bells that must have been around when they finished.

[ttc0169]

On 11/9/2021 at 3:44 PM, murphaph said:

There are certainly pics in the Irish Railway Rambler book of Mk3 stock with yellow painted springs dating from the late 80's at the latest. At least some Mk2 stock had red painted springs around the same time.

From a good friend who worked on Mk3 coaches back in the day-and knew them inside and out…

Re colour of bogie springs on MK 3 carriages.  The springs on delivery on the first batch were failing in service, BREL admitted some were faulty but not all 

. The new batch were coloured yellow on carriages and blue on the heavier bogie on the generating Van's. So on carriages in service some were yellow and black. 

[Lough Erne]

For general interest regarding Bogie springs on the later B4 bogies found under the mk2 coaches the general accepted colour scheme is/was as follows

Primary - Red

Secondary Outer Bolster Spring - White

Secondary Inner Bolster Spring - Red

For interest, the earlier Craven B4 Bogies were

Primary - Tan/Orange

Secondary - Brownish

 

[flange lubricator]

B5 primary light blue , secondary white. 

[DiveController]

1972....

Incontrovertible evidence of red springs in Mk2s in as delivered condition

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49629548148/in/faves-77496544@N07/

@Lough Erne If you have any photos of the Cravens plea share and thanks for your post above

 

[murphaph]

I guess the blue springs are rated higher if they are under a GSV.