DCC: where to start?

[Sean]

hey guys, 

 

looking for some info on this topic and in general I have absolutely have no idea where to start as i have only ever had DC systems

 

where can i find out about wiring?

 

whats the best entry level controller to pick up and are there any available second hand? could an arduino be used to put together a controller in a DIY fashion?

 

In regard to the decoders on the loco i have much the same questions. not sure what to look for,  i think all my locos are 21 pin. what are the best entry level decoders that wont break the bank and is there any chance of finding them second hand? again can i DIY them?  I would consider myself to be quite proficient at the DIY side of electronics so should be able to tackle somthing if such a project already exists.

 

I understand sound to be quite pricey so can live without this for the moment but id like the option to be there so i can easily add sound in future.

 

Locos to be chipped are MM203 MM130 MM143 and IRM007

 

ahhh so many questions

 

Cheers.

[flange lubricator]

Like yourself  did a little research and  I recently took the plunge with a NCE powercab(everything you need is in the box ) and fitted one of my 121 class and an A class with sound  chips  and I was blown away ! The MM141/181 require a speaker to be fitted but not that difficult either to do  . 

Edited February 14, 2022 by flange lubricator

[Sean]

my biggest gripe is not being able to control the lighting and the lighting operating like a dimmer switch as the loco runs though slow operations  

 

Anybody using DCC++? looks right up my street.

[murrayec]

A good starter DCC controller is the Roco MultiMaus available second hand on ebay & Amazon for around €80.00, the handset is compatible with other systems so it can be used on upgrade systems that deliver more power like the Roco Z21 costing around €250.00

There are loads of books available on DCC wiring, converting existing locos & DCC projects- one handy book is 'Digital Command Control for Railway Modellers Crowood.com ISBN 978-1-84797-020-6.

An arduino can be used to run DCC but this just adds complexity to converting over to DCC- keep it simple at first and go for the MultiMaus!

Go for ESU chips, ESU have great backup on their website and when your ready for sound, they do a lot of sound files that can be downloaded and installed on the chip. One needs the ESU Locprogrammer for this- but that's for a later stage!

One takes a risk buying chips second-hand, it's best to buy new as they are guaranteed if they go faulty- as long as they are fitted correctly and the use complies with the warranty.

Forget about trying to DIY chips - Google some DCC chip pictures and you will see what I mean.....

Eoin

 

 

[David Holman]

First of all, suggest you try and find someone with DCC (e.g. Visit a club or show) to find out if it really is for you. I've tried various systems and owned both a Lenz and Prodigy. They all have their merits and foibles!

 In the end, decided DCC is not for me, because I found it all a bit of a faff, so try before you buy, because you may find it is not for you. Don't forget, you are adding in significant extra costs to every loco (plus points and switches too), especially if you want sound.

 DCC is definitely not plug and play either. To get the best out of it, every loco needs fine tuning and if that is part of the fun, then great. However, it can get frustrating at times. In my experience not systems will work with all chips, which can also get expensive. Sometimes, the simpler way is best.

[Sean]

Interesting food for thought Dave as its not usually you hear from someone who is more for DC my biggest annoyance with DC is how the lighting on the loco is controlled and i dont really want to turn those lights off either...

 

@Murrayec due to budget constraints i really am leaning towards the DCC++ option,  mainly because i have virtually everything there already except a motor shield and decoder so i can be tinkering.  I build midi controllers driven by arduino boards so am also kind of interested in seeing just what it can do with a train. that being said you are probabaly right about the decoders, and i dont want to risk blowing up my lovely trains!!, so can at least justify getting those.

 

are you saying the sound and non sound ESU chips the same at a hardware level and can be programmed with sounds later?

control from a phone or tablet really appeals to me.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Sean

[David Holman]

If you like the challenges of programming and running multiple locos, then DCC is great. I tried it because it seemed to offer better running qualities and simpler electrics - neither of which are necessarily true.

 My layouts are all one of two trains on scene maximum, so the multi engine thing isn't necessary. Fine control and the introduction of braking, coasting, sounds etc seemed very tempting and was interesting - for a while. However, I soon found that simply turning a dial to move a train was all I needed.

 My locos are all kit or scratchbuilt in metal, so need fine tuning to work well. A DCC chip introduces an extra set of variables to knowing why something isn't running well and will certainly not compensate for dirty track, poor pick ups etc. Brass loco bodies and DCC chips are not good bedfellows either. The chip has to be fully insulated or it is all too easy to fry it - been there, got the T-shirt. Several of them in fact.

 Sound is great, but again has its limitations, I found. Cost to begin with at over £100 per loco, while the downloaded manual for a Tsunami sound chip runs to well over 100 pages, a lot to learn. At exhibitions, have heard too many steam locos with sound that is little better than sand paper rubbing together and/or the model does not behave like a steam loco which only puffs when the regulator is open.

 Diesel sound seems to work best, not least because the lack of smoke/steam is less noticeable. However, well remember a 7mm scale diesel depot layout, where the owner had something like 20 Heljan locos ticking away on idle, at full volume, creating what was best described as white noise and doubt if any self respecting shedmaster would want to waste all that fuel.

 All in all, I spent several hundred pounds only to find DCC is not for me, hence my cautionary tale. If you like tinkering with electronics and programming the features, then it will be good fun, but it is not a universal cure all and requires the same attention to detail as any other branch of our hobby. As with anything else, you pays your money and makes your choice.

[Galteemore]

Interestingly, many 7mm modellers are now dropping DCC and heading to RC as a better option. If you like playing and tinkering with electronics then that’s fine - it’s got to be basic for me. We all have different approaches. I have found the real joy of modelling for me lies in researching and building stuff either from kits or raw materials. The basic mechanics of getting the end product moving I prefer to keep as simple as possible! But there are others that prefer opening a boxed model and then going to town with leds and speakers. Fair play to you- it’s a broad church and we can learn from each other. And like Mr H I have yet to hear a DCC steam loco that can coast convincingly and also turn up the amps with a heavy load on a gradient. Sound, like time, does not always ‘scale’ in the way that visual things do….

Edited February 15, 2022 by Galteemore

[Mayner]

Like David and Galteemore I get a lot more enjoyment out of building models than collecting and running rtr, but I get a tremendous kick out of operating freight trains. I was a fairly early entrant to DCC with a fairly large American N gauge layout in 98-99 when it was necessary to first mill a recess in the chassis and then hard wire a decoder I ended up shorting and blowing up quite a few decoders as still have most of my N gauge loco collection complete with hard wired decoders though I they haven't run in about 10 years probably holding them in case we have to downsize to a smaller house.

I still use the original Digitrax command stations, though I replaced the original 1999 throttle with something slightly more up to date.

The Digitrax Zephyr Express is a good starter set capable of expansion a reasonable long term investment

I have no plans to convert my collection of 4mm kit built locos to DCC there is very good control with a Gaugemaster hand held and converting the locos to DCC is just not worth it, my MM 121s and IRM 001s are fitted with DCC but not really interested in the functions.

Most of my large scale G Gauge American narrow gauge battery radio control locos are fitted with sound which does not come cheap and not the most realistic.

I am not convinced sound is worth it having tried and spent a lot of money on sound fitted locos in OO, O and G gauge I am not convinced its worth the expense.

One or two sound fitted locos sound reasonably ok especially shunting , but for me several sound equipped locos is to much to take and I press the mute button.

[murrayec]

@Sean Standard running/function chips are not the same as sound/running/function chips - sound chips cost a lot more than the standard ones, as David says- sound is in the region of £120.00 or so.

Good quality speakers are a must to avoid the 'sand paper' vibe

I would recommend running your points in old style DC with levers or switches, DCC control of points works out expensive with the addition of points control units which are needed, and it can be quite annoying to select the point on the controller where a lever on a mimic board is much easier, gives a visual of the status and is more prototypical.

I use both DC & DCC systems, and have a different view than David on DCC- basic DCC loco set-up is very easy, after working out the standard wiring and the controller menu all one needs to know is how to assign a loco a separate running number and your off. As you know yourself lights are full on, locos can be stopped in sidings with lights on and if one has sound the loco can be left with engine running sound. Most chips have at least 2 extra functions, some have more, so other stuff can be switched on or off- fire box light, cab light, or smoke generator for example. DCC adds a whole new dynamic over DC to running trains. Start simple.......

The Z21 can be accessed on your phone and tablet.

Eoin.

[murrayec]

Here is a project on the workbench, a G Scale GP9 being converted to DCC with sound. I'm using a ESU Loksound 5XL board, a 38mm 4 Ohm 3 watt speaker, dual white/red led directional lights, led upgrade lights for running number display and the cab. The loco has two smoke generators.

And this is a G Scale RS3 with DCC converted, the chip in this one is a Digitrax non sound, the lights were upgraded to white/red dual leds. This loco also has a smoke generator run from the DCC chip.

Work completed but cab light voltage needs to be turned down on the chip!

These and one other upgrade has transformed the clients running options, on a single line track he can now run multipal trains and have full control of each loco should difficulties arise.........

Eoin

Edited February 15, 2022 by murrayec

[Robert Shrives]

A number of traders offer classes in DCC and of course U tube can be a good place to enjoy information. Certainly a club if available will help.  

Sound is a marmite thing for locos but background ambient sounds work better along with fadeable sounds and mute is always good option.  Loco speaks despite all the good words will give an effect but whether it is "real" is much in the ear of the beholder!  Tiny speakers to me cannot replicate the base rumble of big engines, steam engines need to be driven with a full suite of sounds and timing. Seeing a loco moving loco on 4 wagons approaching a crossover sounding like a 9F with 1000tons uphill misses the effect required by a country mile, but layouts not big enough to allow human intervention with sound and driving loco, know doubt all programmable  in future versions but I find life too short.        

I suspect DCC and on board power with RC will develop  in the smaller scales but I think ( enter Luddite mode!) that part of the fun of the hobby is building stuff and not plug and play of the modern iteration of the hobby I see developing. I am sure others find such gear an technical breath of fresh air and improving the hobby and I am more than happy to be left behind !! 

Robert     

[Sean]

some really good advice here folks and i think the best take away is to err on the side of caution with things. 

sound seems nice and all but at those prices, i just might have to pass, i love the idea of realdrive but need to be able to justify those high costs, the audio engineer inside of my brain has been trying to come up with other ideas for  adding sound to the layout which in reality may just be a little more practical (and much better sounding to boot)

that same audio engineer would probably quickly become tired of the sound of trains through iphone speakers as robert has hinted at above.... I wonder what work could be done in this area to improve bass and fidelity of onboard speakers, phones have improved MASSIVELY in recent years and there may be a scope to bring some of that technology over to a locomotive. thats a topic for another thread however which merits further investigation on my part!

the layout in mind is very simple with no more than 2 locos running at a time, but its a very slow moving depot so my biggest draw again is unlocking the full potential of the lights as i want to be able to fully light the layout over time also. DCC accessories dont really interest me and im happy to do points by hand for now, ill eventually electrify them but thats practically going to be years away.

so with all this in mind, and no particular limits on time as i have an exceptionally(for me) smooth DC controller im probabaly going to order the arduino shield and one single soundless decoder and play around on a lenght of track to wet my feet and that way i will soon see if its for me or not.

Will probabaly go with an official IRM of MM decoder to start with as they dont cost a whole lot more than the generic ESU ones and i know all the functions will be as they need to be to get started with.

[Bob229]

Plenty good advice here, anyone with experience of Hornby DCC select controllers Thanks

[murrayec]

29 minutes ago, Bob229 said:

Plenty good advice here, anyone with experience of Hornby DCC select controllers Thanks

The Select is not a great controller, I used one for years- it regularly went faulty when selecting a loco and even when using the F keys! Unplugging it from the mains and plugging in again sorted it for a while bet eventually it would go faulty. Other owners reported similar problems.

I think later versions worked OK, mine must be over 20 years old!

I heard a while back that Hornby can fix this problem, but you should contact them through the website to check if they still do.

I eventually decided to change and got the Multimaus

Eoin

 

[David Holman]

On 15/2/2022 at 8:54 PM, Sean said:

some really good advice here folks and i think the best take away is to err on the side of caution with things. 

sound seems nice and all but at those prices, i just might have to pass, i love the idea of realdrive but need to be able to justify those high costs, the audio engineer inside of my brain has been trying to come up with other ideas for  adding sound to the layout which in reality may just be a little more practical (and much better sounding to boot)

that same audio engineer would probably quickly become tired of the sound of trains through iphone speakers as robert has hinted at above.... I wonder what work could be done in this area to improve bass and fidelity of onboard speakers, phones have improved MASSIVELY in recent years and there may be a scope to bring some of that technology over to a locomotive. thats a topic for another thread however which merits further investigation on my part!

the layout in mind is very simple with no more than 2 locos running at a time, but its a very slow moving depot so my biggest draw again is unlocking the full potential of the lights as i want to be able to fully light the layout over time also. DCC accessories dont really interest me and im happy to do points by hand for now, ill eventually electrify them but thats practically going to be years away.

so with all this in mind, and no particular limits on time as i have an exceptionally(for me) smooth DC controller im probabaly going to order the arduino shield and one single soundless decoder and play around on a lenght of track to wet my feet and that way i will soon see if its for me or not.

Will probabaly go with an official IRM of MM decoder to start with as they dont cost a whole lot more than the generic ESU ones and i know all the functions will be as they need to be to get started with.

Years ago, pre DCC, there was the Pacific Fast Mail system. Locos had a cam on  the axle to create synchronised chuffs. While there were on board speakers, some folk used tweeters for this and had bigger bass woofers fixed under the layout. No doubt as an audio engineer, you'll know that the human ear doesn't pick up direction from low frequency sound.

 The best example I saw of this was on an American outline layout at a show in Holland. It was 0 gauge and just had two locos - a Challenger 4-6-6-4 and a three unit diesel, each of which had a PFM unit. These were hooked up to the mother and father of HiFi systems, which included two, two metre high speaker stacks. Needless to say, when either loco moved (and especially the diesel), the earth and many of your internal organs moved!

 Richard Chown's legendary Castle Rackrent system used PFM units in a more conventional way.

 Food for thought perhaps? Try an internet search for more info.

[Mayner]

7 hours ago, David Holman said:

Years ago, pre DCC, there was the Pacific Fast Mail system. Locos had a cam on  the axle to create synchronised chuffs. While there were on board speakers, some folk used tweeters for this and had bigger bass woofers fixed under the layout. No doubt as an audio engineer, you'll know that the human ear doesn't pick up direction from low frequency sound.

 The best example I saw of this was on an American outline layout at a show in Holland. It was 0 gauge and just had two locos - a Challenger 4-6-6-4 and a three unit diesel, each of which had a PFM unit. These were hooked up to the mother and father of HiFi systems, which included two, two metre high speaker stacks. Needless to say, when either loco moved (and especially the diesel), the earth and many of your internal organs moved!

 Food for thought perhaps? Try an internet search for more info.

Some DCC and analogue sound systems still use cams or reed switches to synchronise steam loco chuff rate, my large scale sound equipped steam locos use reed switches actuated by small magnets fitted to a tender axle, which results in an embarrassing silence when a loco starts to slip, I fitted the magnets and reed switch to a driving loco on one loco but it tends to stall rather than slip when overloaded.

I remember seeing a few PMF fitted layouts at shows during the 80s and 90s the overall impression was that there was more going on on the "sound desk" than on the layout.

Soundtraxx a DCC sound pioneer developed a "Surround Sound" system https://soundtraxx.com/products/surroundtraxx thats based on the principal of using a sound system or layout mounted speakers, its intended to interface with Digitrax Loconet comms, Block Detection and Transponder Decoder systems, requiring a lot of pre-planning and resulting in nearly as much wiring and hardware as a full size railway block detection and signalling system not exactly a budget sound system.

Although an early user of DDC sound (HO & On30--circa 2022) I am well over the novelty and most of my sound equipped locos are set to run on "mute."

I have surround sound in the garden with wind, birdsong, animal and human noises and the sound of an occasional freight train in the background which used to be fun in the early days when I still ran diesel.

[Adrian]

Slightly different opinion to some of the replies on this thread but I absolutely love having DCC sound and lighting and am a total convert. You do have to get a decent DCC chip and speaker but it’s well worth it - check out the vids below, you’ll know if it is for you

Avoid the Hornby select like the plague, it’s very basic, for a little extra spend you’ll get a more reliable controller with more functionality. And if you buy a Hornby DCC sound loco, the basic speaker they add is not a good reflection of proper DCC sound, so just be aware

Personally I use a Lenz LZV100 unit with a LH100 handset and find them powerful yet easy to use.

You can go digital with points or leave them as physical switches which I have done and it’s cheaper, up to you

If you want cheap but good decoders just for running without sound, grab a Zimo MXR600, there about £20-25 Sterling. If you want sound go for an ESU LokSound V4 or 5 they’re about €100-125.

I buy from Roads and rails in the UK as they include speakers for free and have good service. They also do sound chips for the MM121s (both engine types) and MM141/181. Marks Models currently have sound chips for the MM071. I get the IRM A class sound chips direct from IRM.

In my opinion it’s worth the investment. 

Here’s a few examples to give you a good idea (throw the headphones in and turn it up, especially for the last one!) So you can see if it’s for you  Bear in mind that they sound even better in real life as well!

IRM A class & MM071

 

MM071

MM121 old and newer engine

MM141 with double iPhone speaker

 

MM141 with EM2 bass speaker (this speaker is way too big to fit but I just had to try it out for a laugh cos I have one spare - it’s a pity they don’t fit in the 141)

There’s lots to learn with DCC and it can be confusing to start, so if you have more questions keep em coming. I wish I’d had someone to ask when I started with it two years ago!

Edited February 19, 2022 by Adrian

[flange lubricator]

Great videos , I also went for the2 x iPhone  speakers as they were relatively inexpensive per unit and were very easy to fit without having to carry out too many modifications to the loco . 

[Sean]

thans for posting these, have decided to go down a bit of a different path for sound but these will sure come in handy as reference pieces

 

[Adrian]

No worries, best of luck Sean

[gph2000]

If you are comfortable with a soldering iron I recommend joining https://www.merg.org.uk/

[irishthump]

I'm in the same camp as Adrian. I love the DCC sound aspect of the hobby and now almost all of my locos are sound equipped. 

I'd also recommend the ESU Loksound decoders but I went a little further down the rabbit hole and purchased a Lokprogrammer which allows me to buy blank decoders and upload files to them myself and/or tweak factory installed decoders to function how I like them to. 

[Sean]

Is the sharing of esu files/flashing to multiple decoders to be frowned upon?

 

Or is it upto the manufacturer to protect them? I see they can be locked to only work on a certain decoder.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Sean

[irishthump]

23 hours ago, Sean said:

Is the sharing of esu files/flashing to multiple decoders to be frowned upon?

 

Or is it upto the manufacturer to protect them? I see they can be locked to only work on a certain decoder.

The files on the ESU website are free for anybody to use and there’s no restriction on how many decoders you load them on to.

Third party files are different, they are almost ALWAYS locked to a single decoder.

Edited February 26, 2022 by irishthump

[Adrian]

On 24/2/2022 at 6:28 PM, irishthump said:

I'm in the same camp as Adrian. I love the DCC sound aspect of the hobby and now almost all of my locos are sound equipped. 

I'd also recommend the ESU Loksound decoders but I went a little further down the rabbit hole and purchased a Lokprogrammer which allows me to buy blank decoders and upload files to them myself and/or tweak factory installed decoders to function how I like them to. 

Yeahh...I also bought a LokProgrammer but haven't used it yet - got it mainly because it was available when I was ordering something else and they can be hard to get  I plan on a lot of sound locos as well so it makes sense. Apart from that I'm a software developer in my day to day so also just curious on how it works

[irishthump]

16 hours ago, Adrian said:

Yeahh...I also bought a LokProgrammer but haven't used it yet - got it mainly because it was available when I was ordering something else and they can be hard to get  I plan on a lot of sound locos as well so it makes sense. Apart from that I'm a software developer in my day to day so also just curious on how it works

The good thing about the Lokprogrammer is that it does'nt take long to get to grips with it if you just want to do basic things like loading files , remapping functions or tweaking decoder settings.

Swapping out sounds on files is also easy to get to grips with.

[irishthump]

On 19/2/2022 at 2:16 AM, Adrian said:

Slightly different opinion to some of the replies on this thread but I absolutely love having DCC sound and lighting and am a total convert. You do have to get a decent DCC chip and speaker but it’s well worth it - check out the vids below, you’ll know if it is for you

Avoid the Hornby select like the plague, it’s very basic, for a little extra spend you’ll get a more reliable controller with more functionality. And if you buy a Hornby DCC sound loco, the basic speaker they add is not a good reflection of proper DCC sound, so just be aware

Personally I use a Lenz LZV100 unit with a LH100 handset and find them powerful yet easy to use.

You can go digital with points or leave them as physical switches which I have done and it’s cheaper, up to you

If you want cheap but good decoders just for running without sound, grab a Zimo MXR600, there about £20-25 Sterling. If you want sound go for an ESU LokSound V4 or 5 they’re about €100-125.

I buy from Roads and rails in the UK as they include speakers for free and have good service. They also do sound chips for the MM121s (both engine types) and MM141/181. Marks Models currently have sound chips for the MM071. I get the IRM A class sound chips direct from IRM.

In my opinion it’s worth the investment. 

Here’s a few examples to give you a good idea (throw the headphones in and turn it up, especially for the last one!) So you can see if it’s for you  Bear in mind that they sound even better in real life as well!

IRM A class & MM071

 

MM071

MM121 old and newer engine

MM141 with double iPhone speaker

 

MM141 with EM2 bass speaker (this speaker is way too big to fit but I just had to try it out for a laugh cos I have one spare - it’s a pity they don’t fit in the 141)

There’s lots to learn with DCC and it can be confusing to start, so if you have more questions keep em coming. I wish I’d had someone to ask when I started with it two years ago!

The EM2 bass speaker sounds incredible! Have you managed the minor miracle of fitting it inside the loco?

[Adrian]

3 hours ago, irishthump said:

The EM2 bass speaker sounds incredible! Have you managed the minor miracle of fitting it inside the loco?

Unfortunately no, I knew it would never fit was just curious to hear it, it’s about 2/3 the size of the loco chassis and half again as wide so it just ain’t gonna happen

[irishthump]

1 minute ago, Adrian said:

Unfortunately no, I knew it would never fit was just curious to hear it, it’s about 2/3 the size of the loco chassis and half again as wide so it just ain’t gonna happen

Yeah I didn't think so! Personally I've found the sugar cube speakers give the best sound on the 141's.