GSR & CIE locomotive list for grey, green or black livery

[jhb171achill]

Having managed to find old notes in the chaotic parallel world which to outsiders is my "study", here are the details I had promised of loco liveries. The bulk of this material originated from the late Drew Donaldson and Bob Clements, both probably the greatest ever authorities on GSR / CIE steam locomotives.

 

In GSR days, all locomotives were battleship grey as currently seen on RPSI's J15 186. This was inherited from the GSWR's post-1918 livery. No lining was applied, and cab interiors, frame interiors, every single detail bar the red buffer beams, were grey. The GSR never painted anything, broad or narrow gauge, black. Given an exception to every rule, of course, the GSR had just three: the 800 class, painted a mid-green with bluish tint, and yellow (not white) and black lining. Name and number plates on the 800 class had raised polished numbers and lettering, and blue backgrounds. All other (grey) locos had the numberplates just painted over, or sometimes the raised edges and numbers polished to bare metal, and occasionally painted a light creamy yellow colour, particularly after CIE took over.

 

In CIE days, a small number of locos were painted lined green, as on 800 in Cultra Museum (though ignore the "G S" on its tender - should be a "flying snail" for that livery). The locomotives painted green were as follows:

 

1. All surviving 4.6.0s inc. 400 class, 800 class, etc.

 

2. All repainted "Woolwich" 2.6.0s. One, No. 384, received a lined black livery, with red lining, eau-de-nil "snail" and cream painted cabside number, as depicted on the excellent Murphy Models version, for a short time in then late '50s. This loco was used on the Cork - Rosslare (via Mallow) Boat Train.

 

3. Most Dublin Suburban tank engines.

 

4. B4 class No. 467, D4 No. 336 (for a short period, then back to grey), D12 No. 305 and D14 No. 61 (which latter must have made a fine sight!). GSWR J30 (preserved at Downpatrick) was repainted in the late 1950s in its final years of traffic in a shade which if not actual black was as good as black. It had a large painted pale yellow number at that stage.

 

5. One ex-GSWR J15 (193), and one ex-MGWR J18 (593), which were repainted in Cork shortly before the end of steam had the all over grey but with black smoke boxes. One "Bandon Tank" (464) also based there was repainted at the same time in what appears to have been a much darker shade of grey, with black smoke box.

 

6. In the very final years of steam (late 50s to early 60s), some of the very few locomotives which saw a paintbrush by then were turned out in unlined black. They were few in number and I have the details somewhere, but not to hand. When I find the info I'll post it here in the hope that it is of assistance.

 

7. All locomotives receiving green livery except the 800 class had painted numerals and "snails" - in both cases, the standard pale green "eau-de-nil" colour was used, as opposed to the light yellow used to paint numerals on grey / black locomotives. "Snails" were n ever light yellow though - light green on tenders of grey / black engines. No tender engines (including, not surprisingly, all narrow gauge engines), ever had "snails".

 

8. No narrow gauge engines were ever green or black. (A Cavan & Leitrim 4.4.0 would have looked amazing in green!! The closest to this was in the form of C & L No. 1 which remained in C & L green until the mid 1930s, thus one of the very last locos in pre-grouping livery. C & L livery was green, lined red and white).

 

9. Details: the "eau-de-nil" snails were lined in gold, and green locos had buffer beams (always red) lined with black.

 

10. The 800 class differed from other green locos in retaining their numberplates. One of the trio (or possibly two, but not 800 itself) had a red-painted background to the name and numberplates, as currently on the RPSI's 461. For a very short time over the winter of 1952/3, 802 carried a lighter shade of green, possibly as a short-term experiment, as the lighter green applied to carriages, some railcars and diesel locomotives appeared a short time later.

 

I hope this is of interest.

[jhb171achill]

Talking of 10L, all four ex-CBPR locos had non standard number plates, way smaller than standard GSR / CIE pattern. These remained on them until the end, painted numbers never being substituted on these locos, unlike most others.

[RedRich]

It is of great interest and is historical fact. Thank you very much for taking the time to compile and post this. You are a library of information, you're presence and willingness to share it here is hugely appreciated. Even a lot of the rolling stock that was on the network 5 years ago is consigned to history now. Historical fact like this is priceless in this hobby, and plays a huge roll in the grand scheme of things.

 

I hope this encourages more people to photograph anything railway related and make notes because the hobby can't survive without it in the long run. Superb stuff and thank you once again.

 

Rich,

[Mike 84C]

Thats a mine of information and throws a lot of light on a tricky and emotive subject. I shall be able to paint my locos with confidance. Thank you for the time spent collating this information.

Mike

[Mayner]

I would not get too bogged down on what engine was painted a particuar livery.

 

Drew Donaldson who built a large clockwork powered O Gauge layout based on the South Western Section (Dublin to Cork and branches!) painted most of his scratch built fleet in the lined green livery. It was his railway and he obviously prefered lined green to dark grey.

 

Another timetable and operational modeller from the same era who modelled the GNR did not like diesel railcars, built several BCDR locos to work the links normally operated by railcars!

[jhb171achill]

Many thanks, gents. If there's anything else I can dig up I'll post that too. Mayner mentions Drew - yes, strange that he was one of several who meticulously recorded detail, liveries, what locos worked what links and so on.. anyone who knew him will remember the importance he placed on accuracy, and yet he did indeed paint his locos in liveries which for the most part they never carried... Just goes to show that if the owner of a layout wants accuracy, he can have it with information available, or if he prefers something else he's free to do so - it's his layout.

 

I should point out that I would never criticise anyone for preferring to depict something that was not in real life - I had at one stage planned (if I EVER get time!) a layout based on a 3ft gauge version of the Achill line - which most certainly never was! My point in maing posts is to make available information that I have the good fortune to be able to research accurately, for the benefit of whoever wants it.

 

On the subject of layouts in general, apart from liveries, the main thing I notice nowadays is the massively high standards of modelling achieved by both individuals and the several small manufacturers who are making kits currently. I look at the B101 class, the new De Dietrich carriages, the 4 wheel "tin vans" and many more - the pinnacle for me is the model of 800 - who would ever have thought such high class stuff would be available only a few years ago. In my teenage years, a CIE train meant Hornby mk 1's crudely painted black'n'tan.... and an LMS 0.6.0in grey to haul them.... no Murphy Models 141's in a variety of liveries then. If only.

 

Meantime, I'll poke about for more livery details.

[minister_for_hardship]

GSWR 90 was in lined green when on display in Fermoy.

I'm assuming it never worked in that condition and that it was a post-withdrawal paint job?

[jhb171achill]

Yes, indeed, Minister, it was. It started life on the Castleisland Railway Company - it is not known whether they had a livery of their own for their only locomogtive, but it would have been painted in GSWR colours after only a few years. The appropriate version of GSWR livery for that time is what it now carries in Downpatrick. The precise scheme was obtained from a large scale model built at Inchicore around tha time (of a GSW 2.4.0) and presented to the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in London, where it resides to this day, and may be viewed by appointment.

 

It would subsequently have acquired the later version of lining with the same dark green - this was cream and black. After about 1905 it would have been repainted black with red lining, and probably retained this after its 1915 rebuild into its current state. The grey started to appear about 1918 and quickly spread to most GSW locos, and to all GS ones after 1925. When 90 was withdrawn it was painted the way you (and I) remember it. This was a reonable approximation of an earlier GSWR livery, as carried on No. 36 in Cork station. That lighter green seems to have been replaced by the dark olive green about 1870 - before 90's time.

 

90 first went on display in its post-withdrawal scheme at Fermoy, and later to Mallow. It is DCDR's intention to keep it as it is. Basically the loco is in working order, but it needs a boiler lift for insurance and a number of small adjustments made before it re-enters traffic, though this will come abouit in due course. There are several youtube clips of it in traffic, one showing it fully lined in late 1870s style.

[islandbridgejct]

Great info. Thanks.

 

So the livery on 36 is prototypical and was used until about 1870? I had assumed it was made up by CIE in the 50s.

 

I read that 90 was an 0-6-4T until 1915. Do you know would the carriage portion have been in purple lake?

 

(Any chance of a sticky on this topic?)

 

Alan

[Garfield]

Good idea... this is a topic that is likely to be visited again and again.

[Weshty]

It is DCDR's intention to keep it as it is. Basically the loco is in working order, but it needs a boiler lift for insurance and a number of small adjustments made before it re-enters traffic, though this will come abouit in due course. There are several youtube clips of it in traffic, one showing it fully lined in late 1870s style.

 

Thanks for the great info. Is 90 not back on the rails? I travelled on it 2 years ago, has something changed in the interim.

[jhb171achill]

Alan / Garfield

 

Excuse my techno ignorance, but explain what a "stick" is and I'll gladly attempt it! :-)

 

For a company the size of the GSWR, there is a surprising lack of detail about liveries they used. As far as can be ascertained, and I have more detailed notes about this SOMEWHERE, their locos were the colour of No. 36 prior to 1870. As far as I recall from notes I have, this was applied to all locos, goods and all. After about 1870 or so, they started painting them all in the livery seen on No. 90 at Downpatrick, which itself was taken from a large scale model on display in London at the HQ of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers. This is a dark olive green (likely to be the same used by the CBSCR) with red, black and light green lining and black background to the numberplates. There is one inaccuracy on 90, which is a maroon edged running plate instead of brown. I have to hang my head and take sole blame for that myself, as I gave incomplete information to those painting it!!

 

It seems that about 1885/90, the lining changed to black and cream, but base colour was the same. From 1895 onwards, the GSWR painted all locos glossy black with red lining, though it is probable that quite a few were still kicking about in green for some time. In my grandfather's day in Inchicore, the famous battleship grey appeared, as an economy measure. It was probably the same as what wagons were painted, or close, as the GSWR painted wagons a colour which was variously described as black or dark grey. More of that later; I'm preparing a lengthy post on wagon liveries for here - maybe get it done later today.

 

I have a large scale model wagon made by my grandfather when he was in Inchicore and it has the actual paint. I'll try to post a pic of it some time, and it will be eventually going on display in the DCDR Museum.

 

Going back to locos, I reckon that a layout based on the GSWR any time between 1880 and 1910 could reasonably have locos of different liveries - green with both types of lining in the earlier part, and later on green on some, new black on others. What would make a very unique model would be something based on, say, some part of Tralee - Limerick - Sligo about 1930, with a few ex-GSW and ex-WLWR locos in GSWR lined black, getting a bit tatty looking, and a couple of brand new grey locos! Stretch artistic licence, and there's still one WLWR 4.4.0 in maroon... OK, now I'm rambling. Back to the point:

 

No. 90 was indeed a type of 0-6-4T - though I believe that such an arrangement has various definitions... 0.6.0T + 4? But, yes, that's what it was in essence. Carriage portions on railmotors on all Irish companies that had them were in the standard carriage livery of the day. 90's would have been the deep reddish browny "crimson lake" to be seen today on ex-GSWR 1097 and 836 at Downpatrick. The DCDR's policy is accurate liveries (though some older stock has yet to be updated!) and the colour on these carriages is exact. Something at the back of my mind tells me it was unlined - at least for some of the time, but I'd have to check.

 

Weshty - 90 is basically in working order but she is currently on display in the new carriage gallery (and is thus very accessible to modellers). She needs a few minor adjustments though, and is out of her boiler ticket. The work programme for the coming year as far as steam locos are concerned is geared towards O & K No. 3, so that both O & K's will be in traffic. 90 will be next.

 

Now I'll get a cuppa and do the bit about CIE wagon liveries...

[jhb171achill]

I meant to say, explain what a "sticky" is (not a stick!!)...

[Garfield]

I meant to say, explain what a "sticky" is (not a stick!!)...

 

Afternoon, JB! Making a thread 'sticky' means to stick it to the top of the list of topics on the forum, so it doesn't slide away out of sight when newer topics are started. It's a moderator action... and it's already been taken care of.

[jhb171achill]

Ah! Garfield, I defer to your techy knowledge.....

[jhb171achill]

I should have added re GSWR carriage-portion-livery, that the livery used by the company for coaching vehicles seems to have been fairly consistent in contrast. The purple lake colour seems to have been used from early days on, probably with gold lining, but about 1900 they seem to have started using a brown and cream or purple lake and cream scheme, which was applied to the "Rosslare Express" and other main line trains, but not humble branch line six wheelers and stuff like that. My dad remembers seeing an old passenger van in Inchicore in the late 1920s which as he described it was "a sort of brown and creamy colour - very faded". There is much evidence to suggest that the GSR used remaining stock of the same dark paint immediately post amalgamation, but obviously with new GSR markings. This, described as a "very dark maroon" applied to everything until the mid 30s. Again, best example to see now is GSWR 836 at Downpatrick.

[Weshty]

Weshty - 90 is basically in working order but she is currently on display in the new carriage gallery (and is thus very accessible to modellers). She needs a few minor adjustments though, and is out of her boiler ticket. The work programme for the coming year as far as steam locos are concerned is geared towards O & K No. 3, so that both O & K's will be in traffic. 90 will be next.

 

Many thanks sir. A question for you. Bandon tank B4 No.467 appears to be a dark blue-green in 1953 in Colin Boocock's Locomotive Compendium: Ireland (P.43). Is this the case or just slide colour abberation/degradation?

[Glenderg]

I should have added re GSWR carriage-portion-livery, that the livery used by the company for coaching vehicles seems to have been fairly consistent in contrast. The purple lake colour seems to have been used from early days on, probably with gold lining, but about 1900 they seem to have started using a brown and cream or purple lake and cream scheme, which was applied to the "Rosslare Express" and other main line trains, but not humble branch line six wheelers and stuff like that. My dad remembers seeing an old passenger van in Inchicore in the late 1920s which as he described it was "a sort of brown and creamy colour - very faded". There is much evidence to suggest that the GSR used remaining stock of the same dark paint immediately post amalgamation, but obviously with new GSR markings. This, described as a "very dark maroon" applied to everything until the mid 30s. Again, best example to see now is GSWR 836 at Downpatrick.

 

I read recently that GSR's initial stock was painted a colour called "Crimson Lake" and that it had a beautiful tone to it, and given three coats of varnish to finish. However, as costs rose, and paint stocks dwinded, the original colouring faded, and only varnish was applied, so a desaturated colour arose. This would tie in with a "sort of brown" as it would still have remnants of carmine in the paint. But not much! By the time Bulleid got into his retirement job, a more LMS Maroon was adopted briefly? I'll look up the reference for you, it was in a Des Coakham book, Broad Gauge Carraiges I think. It would be nice to "box this off" so to speak. Richie.

[jhb171achill]

Des - at least one Bandon tank was painted green, can't recall number off the top'o'me'ead... but - if is that one, it could be a combination of a dirty green loco and a colour-compromised slide. The tale will be told by wther it has lining like "Maedb" in Cultra - if it has, the thing is green underneath it all - but the standard CIE shade (again, as on "Maedb"). If no lining, it's grey for sure, as no green engines were ever UNlined, and no grey ones were ever lined. Of the handful painted black, a single Woolwich got red lining for the Rosslare Express, as per the Bachmann model.

Glenderg - yes, that description is spot on. To see it in the flesh, the DCDR has been able to ascertain exact shade, and this is currently applied to two ex-GSWR coaches there (836 and 1097). It won't be long until it will also be applied to six wheeler no. 69 there. The LMS-style maroon was first applied to the "steels" (Bredin 1935 stock) and the seconf batch of Drumm trains. I got that info from Senior, who saw it all happen, so that bit's first hand...

There is some evidence that coaches painted in Limerick may initially appeared somewhet browner for some reason. Don't forget too that the GSR painted some main line stock brown and cream lined in black from the late 20s to about 1934. This, actually, is something I've yet to see in a model, but it was never applied to steel sided stock, only older wooden stock used on main routes. The Achill branch had a regular coach towards its end still in this livery, and quite fresh looking too, as late as 1934 - bogie compo 179M.

Edited January 11, 2018 by jhb171achill

[minister_for_hardship]

Wasn't the green Bandon tank the one that went 'foreign' (DSE section)?

[jhb171achill]

That's right, Minister. The green livery was intended to be applied to main line locos and Dublin suburban locos. It wasn't an exact science, but it did apply to the Bandon tanks! One "60 class" GSWR 4.4.0 became green - now THAT would have been a sight for sore eyes.

[islandbridgejct]

Thanks jhb.

 

I'm afraid I lost track of this thread for a while, or I'd have said that sooner. I'm hoping to do something set about 1900 to 1910, maybe with GSWR in green and black liveries, ex-WLWR in maroon and who knows, perhaps the MGWR in green and prussian blue. (Claremorris, Collooney, Athenry perhaps - thoughts keep moving around - maybe a single transferrable station.) But that's just getting carried away. For a start, I'll probably just try to stock it with diesel transition vehicles, because there are kits available and the painting and lining should be easier.

 

Please keep the information coming. It's utterly priceless. Up to now, all I've been able to get is snippets in different books.

 

Thanks for the sticky, Garfield.

 

Alan

[Mayner]

Thanks jhb.

 

I'm afraid I lost track of this thread for a while, or I'd have said that sooner. I'm hoping to do something set about 1900 to 1910, maybe with GSWR in green and black liveries, ex-WLWR in maroon and who knows, perhaps the MGWR in green and prussian blue. (Claremorris, Collooney, Athenry perhaps - thoughts keep moving around - maybe a single transferrable station.) But that's just getting carried away. For a start, I'll probably just try to stock it with diesel transition vehicles, because there are kits available and the painting and lining should be easier.

 

Please keep the information coming. It's utterly priceless. Up to now, all I've been able to get is snippets in different books.

 

Thanks for the sticky, Garfield.

 

Alan

 

For sheer variety it would be hard to beat Ballysodare-Sligo 1895-1910 WLWR crimson lake, GSWR black green, MGWR green, blue & cream, SLNCR green, black.

 

Originally I had been thinking in terms of a specific station or line, but I am thinking more and more of generic stations including elements from the North Kerry & Limerick-Sligo line.

[jhb171achill]

Indeed, Mayner - can anyone top that for a list of liveries side by side!!!

[jhb171achill]

Mayner's post got me thinking. Kingsbridge, circa 1930 might well have almost every loco in grey, as few non-GSW ones had appeared there yet, and the GSW had been painting them grey since about 1915 - but carriages!!

 

- GSWR crimson lake

- GSR crimson lake

- GSR chocolate and cream

- occasional visitors in form of MGWR both deep maroon (1918-21) or brown

- possibly occasional visiting DSER lined maroon///

 

Wagons - GSWR v. dark grey (blackish) or GSR grey (like LMS grey)...

 

The again, the West Cork might have GSR crimson lake and/or brown and cream on visiting stock, or CBSCR green... locos grey or a Bandon tank in olive green!!

[minister_for_hardship]

Ever so slightly OT but why did GS&WR express locos carry a pair of smokebox mounted lamp irons into early GSR days?

 

I've never seen a pic of them carrying lamps or a headboard of any description!

 

Also they carried TWO whistles, one regular and one 'bass' toned one for the emergency cord. When was the second dispensed with?

[jhb171achill]

I will make enquiries, Minister. I am not sure myself.

[jhb171achill]

Folks - on re-reading two of my posts above, one re. DCDR's No. 90 and early GSWR livery, and one regarding CIE "flying snails", I have re-worded the first which was far from clear (it made sense to me, but not to anyone sensible!). The other, regarding "snails", had an unforgiveable blooper in it - having described how CIE put "snails" on tenders, I went on to state that tender engines NEVER carried snails - of course, I meant that TANK engines never carried snails.....

 

I could actually clarify that - in 1959 one ex-T&D loco had a "snail" chalked on the buffer beam, and another inscribed in the dirt on the tank side by someone's finger... if that counts as a "snail" being carried on a tank loco, so be it!

 

Apologies for any confusion caused.

 

In the words of the Great Homer: Dohhhhhh....

[jhb171achill]

In answering a query about the Cavan & Leitrim recently, something occurred to me in the form of some substance for a quiz question!

 

Question: "How many GSR locomotives were not grey?"

 

First likely answer: "Three. The 800 class".

 

Wrong. Think again.

 

"Oh yes! Four, including the 800s and the little shunter at Albert Quay which the company got from Allman's Distillery in Bandon to use as a Cork docks shunter, put a standard number plate on, but never repainted".

 

Wrong. Think again.

 

"Ah! Now I have it. The C & L's "King Edward", which through hardly ever being used, and scrapped early on, retained C & L lined green to the last"

 

Correct. Douze points.

 

(Or - were there other non-greys in GSR times?)

[minister_for_hardship]

Pretty sure I saw a pic somewhere of one of the Inchicore cabs, a sister of 90, carrying lined green in GSR days. Maybe in one of the HC Casserley books?

 

I think one of the last MGWR locos to retain green (Luna?) bogged about in its old livery for a good while before finally getting repainted.

[jhb171achill]

That's correct, Minister. With a stock of over 400 locomotives and the lack of money in those days, overnight repainting was never going to happen. What I had in mind the above, though, was locos that remained well into GSR days, or even into CIE, which never were repainted in grey at all.

 

90 and all its sisters received grey before withdrawal.

 

As one might expect, locos on the narrow gauge lines and the W & T took a while to all be repainted. Former GSWR ones had already been under the grey sheep-dip treatment since about 1918 by the time the GSR was formed. Jhb171-Senior has no recollection of seeing a former DSER or GSWR loco still in pre-grey liveries, despite bring very familiar with both the Harcourt Street line, and the innards of Inchicore Works, from the early 20s. He does, however, vaguely recall GSWR coaches still in their old livery. Apparently there was an old passenger van in tattered GSWR livery still pottering about in or around Kingsbridge well into the 30s. Probably others elsewhere too.

Edited May 1, 2014 by jhb171achill

[Mayner]

I think a couple of the Cavan & Leitrim 4-4-0s ran in C&L lined green until the were sent to Inchacore or overhaul or scrapping in the 1930s, the W&T 2-2-2WT tank appears t have kept her polished brass dome and splasher beading until she was de-railed in the 1930s. The Muskery & West Clare both received new locos before the amalgamation. The new Muskery Hunslet 4-4-0T only lasted to 1927/8 so she was unlikely to have been re-painted, the pair of 1922 built West Clare Hunslet 4-6-0T were unlikely to have need to visit Limerick or Inchacore for boiler work or a mechanical overhaul before the Mid-1930s.

 

Interestingly photos of ex CBP 2-4-2T 10L and T&D 2-6-0T 6T look suspiciously like both locos were painted black following overhaul in the 1950s 6T ran with her number scrawled in white o the buffer beam rather than the usual shaded transfer.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Mayner

[minister_for_hardship]

In CIE 5c carried a fully lined out livery for its short movie career.

 

Did 90 and 184 carry 'heritage' lined green before or after they were on the preserved list? Think 184 was still active whilst in green, 90 may just have been dolled up for display at Fermoy.

[jhb171achill]

90 was repainted late in its career - about 1956 or 7. Two good colour shots I have seen show in one case what looks to be black, in another a somewhat darker shade of grey than the standard. It received an approximation of a GSWR livery which predated even this veteran before it went on display, but after leaving traffic. 184 was technically withdrawn but still usable when it was steamed in Inchicore in an even more peculiar (and utterly inaccurate) livery in the early 60s.

 

Mayner's points are interesting - I had forgotten those one, and there could have been other late repaints as I mentioned initially. In trains of later post 1955 CIE repaints with black in a few cases, or darker grey, I was thinking originally more of GSR days rather than CIE.

 

CBPR livery was black, lined red. All four of their locos got all over grey before they went to the C & L. At least one mid-50s repaint certainly looked black, though I would be equally inclined to think it was very dirty grey. On the other hand, 6T did indeed appear to have been repainted black by CIE.

 

The W & T 2.2.2T was indeed an interesting case in many different ways! I always thought a layout based on this line in the 1930s would be as fascinating as any layout can be.

 

Eye witnesses reported it (and its colleagues) as standard GSR grey, but as Mayner says, not the usual "sheep-dipped" treatment, as dome etc. were to remain polished.

[jhb171achill]

....and yes, at least one Muskerry loco was indeed never repainted by the GSR. That's another I had forgotten! Old age is a terrible thing....

[Eiretrains]

Interestingly photos of ex CBP 2-4-2T 10L and T&D 2-6-0T 6T look suspiciously like both locos were painted black following overhaul in the 1950s 6T ran with her number scrawled in white o the buffer beam rather than the usual shaded transfer.

That's correct re: 10L, it being recorded in 1951 by the IRRS as having been painted black and retaining its numberplate which was painted red. D2 Class 4-4-0 323 is recorded as been painted black also at this time.

 

J.G Dewing recorded a lovely scene of 184 in green working a transfer goods at Islandbridge in May 1960 (Irish Railways in Colour V2), she also did pilot duties in Kingsbridge and North Wall.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Eiretrains