J15 Conversions…?

[226 Abhann na Suire]

Hi all, I know that OO Works have a model of a J15 out but am not quite sure if they are doing a re-run in the coming months and have seen Hornby LNER J15s (which I know to be a good model) for a pretty cheap price around the Internet so I’m wondering what kind of conversion would be needed to turn an LNER J15 into a GSWR one… or with a couple of transfers and potentially a different tender, would I get away with it… 

Happy new year to everyone!

 Oisín

Edited January 4 by 226 Abhann na Suire

[DJ Dangerous]

Somebody, possibly @jhb171achill, told me about a conversion like this before. Hopefully, whoever it was sees this and chimes in.

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Somebody, possibly @jhb171achill, told me about a conversion like this before. Hopefully, whoever it was sees this and chimes in.

Very much a “two foot rule” thing, but very doable. There are a couple of fairly routine British 0.6.0 tender engines which, with a cost of dark grey paint and a CIE number in the cabside, can look the part.

 

[Galteemore]

With any prototype, there are signature features which identify its origins. An easy way to make an ‘Irish’ loco from a generic UK 0-6-0 is to stick on a smokebox door wheel - instant win. As JHB says, livery and transfers will also take you a long way. Many designers crossed the Irish Sea in both directions so there are significant commonalities, especially in that late Victorian epoch. 

Edited January 4 by Galteemore

[DJ Dangerous]

19 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Very much a “two foot rule” thing, but very doable. There are a couple of fairly routine British 0.6.0 tender engines which, with a cost of dark grey paint and a CIE number in the cabside, can look the part.

 

 

I often flick through the "Pre-owned" section on the Hatton's website, and see an 0-6-0T that I have to double check whether it's Irish or not.

[GSR 800]

20 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Very much a “two foot rule” thing, but very doable. There are a couple of fairly routine British 0.6.0 tender engines which, with a cost of dark grey paint and a CIE number in the cabside, can look the part.

 

if CIE stuck with Steam we may have ended up with some bulleid Q1s!

Edited January 5 by GSR 800

[jhb171achill]

29 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

if CIE stuck with Steam we may have ended up with some bulleid Q1s!

Best argument for dieselisation I ever heard!

[Broithe]

2 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

if CIE stuck with Steam we may have ended up with some bulleid Q1s!

I have one in stock, for that very reason.

[GSR 800]

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Best argument for dieselisation I ever heard!

They'd have been more reliable than any Crossley!

I'm quite partial to them.

8 hours ago, Broithe said:

I have one in stock, for that very reason.

I've one myself, but it doesn't have to worry about being "Inchicorised" 

Edited January 5 by GSR 800

[David Holman]

GER J15s are pretty engines, but to my eyes seem a long way from an Irish one. For one thing the dome on the former is well forward, quite close to the chimney, whereas it is well back on a 101. Very different tender outline too, while the loco body shape is likewise very different.

 However, far be it from me to spoil anyone's fun, it's your railway, to do with as you please and a J15 is a very nice model. Nevertheless, an alternative thought might simply to assume one or more somehow found their way to Ireland, after all, several went to France in the Great War and in their long lives they proved themselves to be very useful, go anywhere engines. 

 Feel sure there must be a space in the CIE numbers list for a couple. Meanwhile, such a scenario might also beg the question of what else could have made its way over the water? Ideally, any steam loco with a high footplate and no splashers, probably. Stainer 8F, or any of the Standards?

 Exits, stage left, pursued by a bear...

[GSR 800]

21 minutes ago, David Holman said:

GER J15s are pretty engines, but to my eyes seem a long way from an Irish one. For one thing the dome on the former is well forward, quite close to the chimney, whereas it is well back on a 101. Very different tender outline too, while the loco body shape is likewise very different.

 However, far be it from me to spoil anyone's fun, it's your railway, to do with as you please and a J15 is a very nice model. Nevertheless, an alternative thought might simply to assume one or more somehow found their way to Ireland, after all, several went to France in the Great War and in their long lives they proved themselves to be very useful, go anywhere engines. 

 Feel sure there must be a space in the CIE numbers list for a couple. Meanwhile, such a scenario might also beg the question of what else could have made its way over the water? Ideally, any steam loco with a high footplate and no splashers, probably. Stainer 8F, or any of the Standards?

 Exits, stage left, pursued by a bear...

I've considered Rebuilt Bulleid light pacifics as also being a possible. British loading gauge + 18 ton axle load makes them suitable for all mainline work. (IIRC the loading gauge of the 400s made them unsuitable for the MGWR lines). With tender they were roughly the same length as the 800s. Still I'd imagine turntables would be the bigger gripe with them. 

Standard 5MTs were great, but axle load is near 20 tons, so maybe the standard 4mt 4-6-0 or 2-6-0 would've been a better fit, or perhaps the standard moguls and 2-6-4 tanks. The 'Mickey Mouse' would've been ideal for branch line work but would've been overloaded (as the Woolwiches were) on heavier trains.

With a 'what if' Irish standardisation I think a tint of Bulleid would be great to give uniqueness rather than a copycat of british standardisation. If he had spent more time on standard locos instead of the turf burner we may have ended up with some very interesting designs. 

 

[Broithe]

3 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

They'd have been more reliable than any Crossley!

I'm quite partial to them.

I've one myself, but it doesn't have to worry about being "Inchicorised" 

As generally despised as they are by the purists, I like them - a solid, compact and powerful last attempt at a 'modern' steamer.

[Mayner]

On 6/1/2024 at 12:24 PM, GSR 800 said:

I've considered Rebuilt Bulleid light pacifics as also being a possible. British loading gauge + 18 ton axle load makes them suitable for all mainline work. (IIRC the loading gauge of the 400s made them unsuitable for the MGWR lines). With tender they were roughly the same length as the 800s. Still I'd imagine turntables would be the bigger gripe with them. 

Standard 5MTs were great, but axle load is near 20 tons, so maybe the standard 4mt 4-6-0 or 2-6-0 would've been a better fit, or perhaps the standard moguls and 2-6-4 tanks. The 'Mickey Mouse' would've been ideal for branch line work but would've been overloaded (as the Woolwiches were) on heavier trains.

With a 'what if' Irish standardisation I think a tint of Bulleid would be great to give uniqueness rather than a copycat of british standardisation. If he had spent more time on standard locos instead of the turf burner we may have ended up with some very interesting designs. 

 

In my early teens I dreamed up an Island railway system off the coast of Wicklow independently operated with GWR influence but linked to the CIE system (I had never heard of Thomas, Sodor at this stage!)

 

Modern main line steam locos had a definite GW influence, though there was a later Bulleid influence with an "Airsmoothed" 2-6-2 influenced by the DB Class 23 of the 50s, before going down a locally manufactured version of the NBL diesel hydraulics before a CIE takeover in the 70s.  The Island had a heavy industry base including steel manufacture and shipbuilding.

Going back a tweeny weeny bit closer to reality during the 1940s CIE proposed "re-building" the Woolwich Moguls into 3 cylinder 4-6-0s combining a 400 Class Boiler, 800 Class chassis cylinders and motion and Woolwich driving wheels.

The end result would have looked reasonably close to an LMS "Patriot" 4-6-0 with small wheels and likely to have been a useful go-almost anywhere loco combining proven, boiler, running gear and wheels, its possible a 6'7" version would have been built to bring the various 400 Class subclasses into line.

Like the Bulleid Pacifics the 3 cylinder layout of the 'rebuilt' Woolwiches would have been easier on the track that 2 cylinder locos like the Woolwich or 400s, could have been used on the Midland, Mallow to Tralee and possibly Rosslare-Cork useful locos. 

The Patriot would be a close enough model in general outline, though the tender would probably been more modern in design, though Inchacore just might have kept the existing Woolwich tenders which were basically a Midland/early LMS design.

Proposed 372 Class 4-6-0 1945

[Galteemore]

That’s interesting re a near-Patriot. A green one appears briefly in the original Awdry books as it happens - the ‘big city engine’ whose derailment permits Gordon a brief off-island excursion. https://ttte.fandom.com/wiki/Big_City_Engine

[Horsetan]

On 5/1/2024 at 11:24 PM, GSR 800 said:

I've considered Rebuilt Bulleid light pacifics as also being a possible. British loading gauge + 18 ton axle load makes them suitable for all mainline work. (IIRC the loading gauge of the 400s made them unsuitable for the MGWR lines). With tender they were roughly the same length as the 800s. Still I'd imagine turntables would be the bigger gripe with them. 

Standard 5MTs were great, but axle load is near 20 tons, so maybe the standard 4mt 4-6-0 or 2-6-0 would've been a better fit, or perhaps the standard moguls and 2-6-4 tanks. The 'Mickey Mouse' would've been ideal for branch line work but would've been overloaded (as the Woolwiches were) on heavier trains.

With a 'what if' Irish standardisation I think a tint of Bulleid would be great to give uniqueness rather than a copycat of british standardisation. If he had spent more time on standard locos instead of the turf burner we may have ended up with some very interesting designs. 

Given the slightly more generous loading gauge that used to exist on the GS&WR lines, I wonder how practical it might have been to have a few of the post-1926 German standard designs, regauged for 5'3"? Things like the mixed-traffic Br.23 2-6-2s, for example, or the Br.64 2-6-2Ts or Br.86 2-8-2Ts for branch line and suburban work?

[David Holman]

Had the "Emergency" turned out differently, such things might just have happened...

[leslie10646]

1 hour ago, David Holman said:

Had the "Emergency" turned out differently, such things might just have happened...

Now you're tempting me.I'll put up a photo of a DB Class 50 coming through Richhill and then the Enterprise with an 01 Pacific!

I have a Class 23 somewhere as well!

Edited March 10 by leslie10646

[Horsetan]

16 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

Now you're tempting me.I'll put up a photo of a DB Class 50 coming through Richhill and then the Enterprise with an 01 Pacific!

I have a Class 23 somewhere as well!

When BR's Waverley Route was being shut down in 1969, some preservationists allegedly seriously considered reviving services using imported ex-DB engines - things like the 2-cylinder Br.01s and 03s.

Even if the money had been available for these things, there was still the problem of the German loading gauge which was noticeably higher and wider than that available on the Waverley.

As it happens, in those crazy days of 1970s preservation, a few individuals did manage to import a couple of ex-DB and ex-SNCF locomotives; Carnforth hosted a Br01.10 3-cylinder Pacific and a SNCF 231K, neither of which could operate outside the confines of the yard, owing to their width, height and weight! Both of these engines returned to the Continent after the Millennium; I understand 01.1104 returned to steam last year and is now running railtours on parts of the DB network.