1960s and 1970s Containers in Ireland - Contemporary Scans from Jane's Freight Containers

[Mol_PMB]

As yet I haven't found any images of the early CIE refrigerated containers, so I'll have to pass over those for now. Let's look at the Barley hoppers.

There were only 12 of these, introduced about 1970 and I understand they were used for malting barley traffic from Tralee to Guinness in Dublin. Here's an excellent photo by Brian Flannigan on Flickr, dated 1971:

Although there weren't many of them, they were unusual enough to attract photographers. Here's an image from elsewhere on this forum:

Legible numbers on these images include CIE 480, 482, 487, so I would guess that the number series was CIE 480-492.

The IRRS has a photo of some in the yard at Heuston in 1970:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509415685

Whilst by the 1980s one had been repurposed as part of a mobile concrete mixing train:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527285451

 

[Mol_PMB]

A couple of posts back I described the CIE insulated containers. From Steve Parker on Flickr, here's another view of an insulated container; it appears to be number 2073 or perhaps 2078:

Next, the Tiltainer. Introduced in 1973, these were CIE's first 8'6" high containers and there were 100 of them.

These were open-topped and mostly open-sided, though they had low drop-sides. They also had supports for a sheet to weatherproof the box. This photo from Ernie dated 1974 shows one of them, almost brand new:

This photo from Jonathan Allen on Flickr dated 1975 shows three of them in a train of other CIE containers. Note that the sheets were numbered, probably to match the containers. They appear to be in a CIE 14xx series:

Again from Jonathan Allen on Flickr, here's a closer view of half of one, dated 1975:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49534056868

I think the later CIE containers with full curtain sides were different from these early 'Tiltainers', although they might have been modified.

 

[Mol_PMB]

Sorry, I missed this excellent photo of a tiltainer from Wrenneire in this thread:

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8148-freight-containers-irish-oo-gauge-40ft-or-20-ft/page/3/

This does confirm that the sheet and the container numbers matched, and that they were in a 1400 series.

[Mol_PMB]

Now, I mentioned earlier that the CIE container asset listings in the annual reports changed in 1974, becoming less detailed.

The categories were reduced to:

• Rail: Covered
• Rail: Lancashire Flat
• Rail: Other
• Road: Covered
• Road: Lancashire Flat

There was no split between ISO and pre-ISO, and the 'other' category swept up all the less common types.

The distribution is shown in the graph below, through to the split of CIE in 1987 and a little beyond. The 1973 totals for rail and road are also shown to provide a comparison with the previous graphs:

Between 1973 and 1974 there was negligible change in the totals for road and rail, so it is likely that the 1974 fleet was much the same as for 1973, just categorised differently.

The overall trends from 1974 onwards are:

• The road container fleet gradually reduced each year until it reached zero in 1990. It seems unlikely that there were many new containers built for the road fleet in this period.
• The rail container fleet increased significantly in the 1974-1979 period, and then gradually declined slightly.
• Among the rail containers, the 'covered' category increased by 250% from 487 to a peak of 1703.
• Among the rail containers, the 'other' category doubled from 198 to a peak of 420.
• 'Lancashire Flats' gradually decreased throughout the period.

The only Jane's I have for this period is the 1982 edition. That doesn't have a detailed fleet listing for CIE but states: "A total of 2035 containers and 323 flats are owned" [total 2358]. Comparing with the data in the CIE annual report for 1982, and combining road and rail, the totals are 259 Lancashire Flats and 2148 for everything else [total 2405], which isn't too far off considering that the counts may represent different dates and some of the 'others' may have been types of flat.

So from 1974 onwards we would expect to see large increases in the numbers of CIE containers, and in the variety of types, but the statistical data from the annual reports and from Jane's don't give us any specifics. We'll have to work it out from photos and I haven't started that study yet!

As a taster, this wonderful photo linked from Jonathan Allen on Flickr is dated 1977 and shows a long train of CIE containers:

From the front, we have:

• Side door container, 8'6" high (new type)
• Side door container, 8'0" high (old type mentioned in previous posts)
• Bulk Freight container, 8'0" high (new type)
• Side door container, 8'6" high (new type)
• Tiltainer, 8'6" high (mentioned in previous posts)
• Side door container, 8'0" high (old type mentioned in previous posts)
• Side door container, 8'6" high (new type)
• Side door container, 8'6" high (new type)
• Double Side door container, 8'6" high (new type)
• Side door container, 8'6" high (new type)
• Side door container, 8'0" high (old type mentioned in previous posts)
• Tiltainer, 8'6" high (mentioned in previous posts)
• Open-top half-height container (possibly under the umbrella of the 'Lancashire Flat' group)
• Side door container, 8'6" high (new type)
• Tiltainer, 8'6" high (mentioned in previous posts)
• Side door container, 8'6" high (new type)

[Mol_PMB]

Now, whilst on the subject of early containers, I would like to talk about the odd frameworks that are seen fitted to some 4-wheel container wagons in the early 1970s. I'd better state up front that this is conjecture based on photos, and I'd welcome any facts to prove or disprove my thoughts.

I'm sure many forum members will be familiar with this image of a B+I liner train, which is included in at least 3 editions of Jane's Freight Containers as well as several other publications from the early 1970s. In this photo, alternate wagons have a strange oversize framework instead of a container:

It's worth noting that there are other photos of B+I and Bell liner trains from the same period that don't have these things, just containers, like these three different trains pictured in the nli archive dated 1971:

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307812

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000308267

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307819

Now, here's a link to a very interesting photo by Jonathan Allen on Flickr, which shows a mixed freight heading south from Lisburn around 1972. The third and fourth vehicles are 4-wheel container flats, both carrying early Bell containers. One is normal, and the other has one of the strange frameworks with the container loaded inside it. There is negligible difference between the heights of the containers, suggesting that the framework doesn't have much thickness at floor level under the container:

However, the fact that a container can be loaded inside the framework, apparently with a bit of space around it, shows that the framework must be significantly larger in footprint than the nominal 20'x8' of the wagon floor.

Being longer than the wagon floor probably meant that the couldn't be loaded on consecutive wagons without fouling each other, hence the alternate marshalling of the train in the first photo.

 

So now we come to this excellent photo uploaded by Wrenneire in this thread https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8148-freight-containers-irish-oo-gauge-40ft-or-20-ft/page/3/, which shows the frameworks more clearly:

 

The first thing to note is that the frameworks carry the wagon number; the nearer one is 25904, one of the later examples of the 25436 series. This strongly suggests that they are attached to the wagon, rather than being a 'swapbody' or other intermodal container which would be numbered independently of the wagon (* see below). 

It's also interesting that there is something loaded inside the framework, being craned in or out. The load appears to be a 'Lancashire Flat', laden with crates and sheeted over with an orange and black sheet. Very similar to the one on the adjacent road vehicle. So, as with the train at Lisburn, the framework is intended to have a container loaded inside it.

 

So what were they for? Why not just load the containers directly on the wagons, which would have been perfectly viable?

I suggest that they were a security measure, intended to prevent theft of the containers' contents, or other tampering. The framework would prevent access to any container loaded inside it, because the doors couldn't be opened (whether side or end door). I think they were deliberately made to signficantly overhang the ends of the wagons, so that they would also prevent the end doors of containers on adjacent wagons being opened sufficiently to access the contents. They would also provide some additional protection to sheeted loads on Lancashire Flats (as in Wrenneire's photo) just by making it more difficult to access and handle the loads.

 

Whatever they were, they seem to have been quite short-lived, perhaps an unsuccessful experiment?

Any more info welcome!

 

 

* Note: the CIE swapbodies had their own numbers; the only sensible approach as they were designed to be swapped between wagons, as shown by these photos from Brian Flannigan on Flickr:

Keg swapbody number 340, in 1971:

Pallet swapbody, number only partially visible but ends in 53, in 1971:

 

[Mayner]

On 2/1/2025 at 8:02 AM, Mol_PMB said:

Now, whilst on the subject of early containers, I would like to talk about the odd frameworks that are seen fitted to some 4-wheel container wagons in the early 1970s. I'd better state up front that this is conjecture based on photos, and I'd welcome any facts to prove or disprove my thoughts.

I'm sure many forum members will be familiar with this image of a B+I liner train, which is included in at least 3 editions of Jane's Freight Containers as well as several other publications from the early 1970s. In this photo, alternate wagons have a strange oversize framework instead of a container:

 

However, the fact that a container can be loaded inside the framework, apparently with a bit of space around it, shows that the framework must be significantly larger in footprint than the nominal 20'x8' of the wagon floor.

Being longer than the wagon floor probably meant that the couldn't be loaded on consecutive wagons without fouling each other, hence the alternate marshalling of the train in the first photo.

 

So now we come to this excellent photo uploaded by Wrenneire in this thread https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8148-freight-containers-irish-oo-gauge-40ft-or-20-ft/page/3/, which shows the frameworks more clearly:

 

The first thing to note is that the frameworks carry the wagon number; the nearer one is 25904, one of the later examples of the 25436 series. This strongly suggests that they are attached to the wagon, rather than being a 'swapbody' or other intermodal container which would be numbered independently of the wagon (* see below). 

It's also interesting that there is something loaded inside the framework, being craned in or out. The load appears to be a 'Lancashire Flat', laden with crates and sheeted over with an orange and black sheet. Very similar to the one on the adjacent road vehicle. So, as with the train at Lisburn, the framework is intended to have a container loaded inside it.

 

So what were they for? Why not just load the containers directly on the wagons, which would have been perfectly viable?

I suggest that they were a security measure, intended to prevent theft of the containers' contents, or other tampering. The framework would prevent access to any container loaded inside it, because the doors couldn't be opened (whether side or end door). I think they were deliberately made to signficantly overhang the ends of the wagons, so that they would also prevent the end doors of containers on adjacent wagons being opened sufficiently to access the contents. They would also provide some additional protection to sheeted loads on Lancashire Flats (as in Wrenneire's photo) just by making it more difficult to access and handle the loads.

 

Whatever they were, they seem to have been quite short-lived, perhaps an unsuccessful experiment?

Any more info welcome!

 

Pallet swapbody, number only partially visible but ends in 53, in 1971:

 

Its possible that the open topped container/framework were intended to safely carry Lancashire Flat swap bodies popular for Irish Sea unit load traffic in the 60s.

B&I Cork-Dublin Liner/Container train was introduced in 1969 following B&I withdrawl of Cork-South Wales freight services, the photo at North Wall indicate that B&I Lancashire flats overhung both the sides and ends of a 20' road trailer.

Its possible that the 'framework' containers were a quick fix for handling existing Lancashire Flats until sufficient ISO flats became available.

The bagged Fertilier swap body appeared during the late 60s and operated on 20 wagon "Back to Back" fertiliser trains until supreceeded by the bogie wagons in the mid-70s. Sometimes both Bogie and Back-to Back fertiliser wagons ran in the same train, I remember an empty fertiliser made up mainly of bogie wagons with a single Back to Back at the tail end passing Dunlaoire at speed in the 70s with a noticeable jolt as the 4wheeler ran through a facing point.  

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Its possible that the open topped container/framework were intended to safely carry Lancashire Flat swap bodies popular for Irish Sea unit load traffic in the 60s.

B&I Cork-Dublin Liner/Container train was introduced in 1969 following B&I withdrawl of Cork-South Wales freight services, the photo at North Wall indicate that B&I Lancashire flats overhung both the sides and ends of a 20' road trailer.

Its possible that the 'framework' containers were a quick fix for handling existing Lancashire Flats until sufficient ISO flats became available.

The bagged Fertilier swap body appeared during the late 60s and operated on 20 wagon "Back to Back" fertiliser trains until supreceeded by the bogie wagons in the mid-70s. Sometimes both Bogie and Back-to Back fertiliser wagons ran in the same train, I remember an empty fertiliser made up mainly of bogie wagons with a single Back to Back at the tail end passing Dunlaoire at speed in the 70s with a noticeable jolt as the 4wheeler ran through a facing point.  

Now that is an excellent observation, John! Because B+I's Lancashire Flats were 24' long:

I should have read all the information I posted a bit more carefully! The fleet list above is from 1971, the same year as these photos with the 'framework'.

[Mol_PMB]

This link to a photo from Jonathan Allen on Flickr is one I saw a few months ago and then forgot where I'd seen it. I've found it again so I'll link it here.

It's one of those wonderful transition-era trains with some bogie container flats at the front, 4-wheel container flats in the middle, and a rabble of old goods vans on the back. Jonathan dates this as 1979 (slightly uncertainly). However, the date can't be far off as the bogie flats with Y33 bogies were only introduced in 1978, and the traditional goods vans vanished in the late 1970s.

To me, the item of most interest here is the 1970s Manchester Liners container, broadly of this type as available from C=Rail:

https://shop.c-rail-intermodal.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=72_73&product_id=272

Having studied the Manchester Liners containers in detail, it's always nice to see them in unexpected places!

Edited 1 hour ago by Mol_PMB
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