RPSI Steam Northern Ireland

[IrishTrainScenes]

Any updates?

[Galteemore]

Latest info suggests no steam in NI outside heritage sites for the foreseeable future. In any case only steam locomotive in ticket at Whitehead is 3BG AFAIK.

Edited March 13 by Galteemore

[StevieB]

No drivers in NI? Can’t IE drivers be passed for operation in NI? Just a thought.

Stephen

[Galteemore]

58 minutes ago, StevieB said:

No drivers in NI? Can’t IE drivers be passed for operation in NI? Just a thought.

Stephen

I understand that option has been scoped but has proved unviable. There are also no main line locos ready for service in NI, and the commercial road moves required to shuttle engines back and forth would be prohibitively expensive. 

Edited March 13 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

The big issue here is going to be financial viability, and timetable paths in the new Belfast station (though using Central instead would solve the latter).

From time immemorial, certainly for the last thirty years, the money has been made on the Dublin-based trips, as (a) they serve a much larger market, and (b) the northern market has never supported the typical prices for a day our that would be realistically achieved in Britain or Dublin. Even in my time as Treasurer (1988-2000, with some wsubsequent years on the finance committee), most northern-based trips barely broke even. There was a pattern, for example, in years with three "Portrush Flyers" when the forst one typically ran at a significant loss; the second broke even, and the third made a surplus which cancelled out the loss on the first.

Latterly, Santas were as good money spinner in the Belfast area as well as Dublin, but nothing else was. I never remember a Derry trip that did anything more than just about cover costs. Several made substantial losses.

I remember attending a committee meeting one night. I delivered the previous months' financial results and the conversation went like this.

Me: "The Derry trip ran at a loss of £1400" (a lot of money to the RPSI thirty years ago). "We can't operate trips like that unless either the numbers and the fares go well up, or something can be done to slash the costs".

Operations Officer of the day: "That would mean we'd never operate a train to Derry ever again, if you take that view!"

Me: "Exactly".

.....Silence.

Ops Off: "Yes, but you can't just write off Derry for steam trains"

Me: "ANY trip which consistently shows an inability to be commercially viable MUST stop - and, if necessary, we never go near that place again. Doesn't matter if it's the Portrush Flyer* or the May Tour**"

Ops Off: "Yeah, but that's ridiculous"

 

At this meeting, the Society's locomotive officer was sitting to my right, and the carriage officer was sitting opposite me.

I turned to each in turn and said, "OK - if we decide to operate loss-making steam train trips, do I chop the £1400 off the locomotive budget (the loco officer had just asked for a further £14k for a job on No. 4) or do I cut the carriage budget?"

.....Silence.

A planned second Derry trip that season did not run.

 

Such, in preservation, are the realities. All too often, the preservation world is heavily populated by folks who, while (of course) very well-meaning and selflessly generous with their time, allow their hearts to rule their heads, preventing cold, hard practicality from gaining oxygen within their thoughts....

       (*  The Portrush Flyer was, at that time, considered an inviolable sacred cow by the Belfast Area Operations Committee. 

       ** In pre-Santa days, the May Tour was the cash cow which literally was resonsible for the RPSI's survival, full stop).

............................

So what's this got to do with the thread? Simply this. There are three possibilities for future operations in NI on the main line.

1.  Back to the way it was. Use NIR men at previous rates. While there's a complex background, suffice to say that this ship has almost certainly sailed, thus as far as I am aware may be reasonable to rule out.

2.  Use IE men.

3.  Use folks brought over from Britain.

It is understood that there appear to be no NIR men interested in being available, certainly not on the availability levels of the late, great Noel. So scrub that.

In (2) and (3), very considerable extra expense will be involved, especially in (3), in bringing non-NIR people on board. Thus, while technically possible, and probably more so than (1), the crew costs would certainly make any operation in the north a very heavy loss maker. Therefore, the Society would end up subsidising it - and with what? Money earned on other, more financially viable tours, which would otherwise have been spent on keeping steam locos operational. Clearly - IF this turned out to be the case, utterly irresponsible financially.

There may be one fourth option. That would be recruiting several RPSI folks based in the NIR area, and training them up as professional steam drivers. I will not comment on this as I am unaware of whether it's been considered, and if it has, whether it has been found to be feasible. Maybe it is, maybe not - I've no idea; but it's there at least hypothetically. And if it DID happen, in order for the trip to break even, their volunteering generosity might be a necessary factor!

Overall, a huge challenge, it would seem, for the RPSI in the future.

As a separate but related issue, all over the railway it is getting busier, despite the virtual elimination of goods traffic across the system. This in itself will cause increasing overall pathing issues, especially into and out of Dublin and Belfast.

We may but live in hope.

Edited March 14 by jhb171achill

[Mike 84C]

When I worked for the Festiniog  fuel costs were always the topic of conversation, oil being not as cheap as it was. We in the upstairs office were always appraising how many passengers were in the first one and a half coaches. If full of passengers we had covered the fuel cost, if not Oh Dear! A very rough rule of thumb but it was rarely far out.

JHB your thoughts look spot on. Is the fate of mainline steam hanging by a thread on both sides of the Irish sea?

[Mol_PMB]

Are there RPSI tours in planning south of the border? Apart from the May diesel tour (which I'm tempted by) I can't see any in the calendar yet.

[airfixfan]

Another factor for NIR trips is that the green Mk2s have not been on the mainline for 27 months now.  Most of them have not left the carriage shed for 2 years now.  Plus Translink do not allow the Blue GMs on charter trains

 Groups I know made enquiries but we're rebuffed

[jhb171achill]

41 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Are there RPSI tours in planning south of the border? Apart from the May diesel tour (which I'm tempted by) I can't see any in the calendar yet.

I believe there will be, yes.

32 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Another factor for NIR trips is that the green Mk2s have not been on the mainline for 27 months now.  Most of them have not left the carriage shed for 2 years now.  Plus Translink do not allow the Blue GMs on charter trains

 Groups I know made enquiries but we're rebuffed

Getting the Mk 2s back to main line standard will be a cost factor in itself.

THOSE costs have to be recouped from operating profit.

Therefore, the society needs to be sure that trips operated with them will actually be profitable enough to recoup these costs, so “break-even” isn’t enough.

[jhb171achill]

I might add that my predecessor in minding the RPSI’s finances, Galteemore senior, was of the same mind as I was, and so was my successor. Between the three of us we dealt with the society’s funds for some forty years.

[Galteemore]

Agreed JHB. The one lesson I learned from it all (having been pressed into fundraising work since I was able to walk) is that the general public’s generosity subsidises the enthusiast community to an incredible degree.

Edited March 14 by Galteemore

[Mol_PMB]

I'm not familiar with the market price sensitivity in Ireland, but I'll just note the following.

I am considering visiting for the diesel tour in May. The dates aren't ideal for me but I think I can make it work. Route, rolling stock and locos tick my boxes.

The cost of a ticket on the tour is EUR85.

Because it starts early in Dublin and gets back to Dublin late, I need 2 nights in a hotel in fairly central Dublin. Thats going to cost me the best part of EUR400. 

Add in some flights from/to Manchester, the cost of getting to/from the airport at both ends, and a budget for food/drink, and the cost of the rest of the trip (excluding the railtour itself) is going to be around EUR600.

The point I'm trying to make is that for me, the railtour ticket is too cheap!

It's only 12% of the total cost of the trip, yet it's the main purpose of going. I could have my arm twisted for a first class ticket at twice the price (if such a thing existed), because it doesn't make that much difference to the total cost of the trip.

[Mol_PMB]

I just thought to check something else. At normal Irish Rail single fares, Dublin - Waterford - Limerick - Dublin (the tour route) would cost EUR87 if I've got my sums right.

[jhb171achill]

On 14/3/2025 at 12:32 PM, Mol_PMB said:

I'm not familiar with the market price sensitivity in Ireland, but I'll just note the following.

I am considering visiting for the diesel tour in May. The dates aren't ideal for me but I think I can make it work. Route, rolling stock and locos tick my boxes.

The cost of a ticket on the tour is EUR85.

Because it starts early in Dublin and gets back to Dublin late, I need 2 nights in a hotel in fairly central Dublin. Thats going to cost me the best part of EUR400. 

Add in some flights from/to Manchester, the cost of getting to/from the airport at both ends, and a budget for food/drink, and the cost of the rest of the trip (excluding the railtour itself) is going to be around EUR600.

The point I'm trying to make is that for me, the railtour ticket is too cheap!

It's only 12% of the total cost of the trip, yet it's the main purpose of going. I could have my arm twisted for a first class ticket at twice the price (if such a thing existed), because it doesn't make that much difference to the total cost of the trip.

A very good point indeed.

As well as dealing with the money in, and the bills, for the May Tour in its heyday, I also looked after the seating plan for many years. Not as simple as it looks, as among the regulars some requested milepost seats, others wanted to sit with certain people, and at least one asked NOT to be in the same carriage as several others! When we had our older stock, some wanted a compartment coach, some an open like GNR No. 9.

But overall - the ENTIRE contingent from the 32 counties of Ireland would have rarely exceeded one full coach, and occasionally as little just over half of one.

The rest, bar a very small number, were all English. Not even British, but specifically English.

IT IS TO THOSE PEOPLE THAT THE RPSI OWES ITS EXISTENCE TODAY.

The May Tour in pre-Santa train days, provided the society with almost 50% of ALL of its income and profit from ALL sources.

At that time there were some 45 operations annually. The other 44 together made less money than the May tour. Broken down further, the northern trips usually just about broke even. The big money was - and is - Dublin’s day trips. When one considers that in the greater Dublin catchment area there are almost as many people as the whole of Northern Ireland, that’s hardly surprising, of course.

On a side note, many of us older persons always referred to the May Tour as the “two day tour”, despite it being a five day tour!

This had its origins in the first few in the late 1960s, when it WAS just two days.

Over the years, it became three, then four, then five; but I’ll warrant that there will still be at least someone about Whitehead who calls it the “two day”!

Less said about the crass and contemptible “International Railtour” name, the better! 

 

Waylaid myself there; my point was to say that while Irish enthusiasts whinged about it being too expensive, it WAS exceptionally good value indeed.

Yet, not a whisper of complaint from our valuable English visitors, who not only came regularly, but threw twenty pound notes into donation tins, and told dining car, bar, raffle book sales volunteers to “keep the change for society funds” with many transactions; and also spent hundreds on ferries, planes and hotels…

Edited March 16 by jhb171achill

[Horsetan]

55 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

... - the ENTIRE contingent from the 32 counties of Ireland would have rarely exceeded one full coach, and occasionally as little just over half of one.

The rest, bar a very small number, were all English. Nit even British, but specifically English.

IT IS TO THOSE PEOPLE THAT THE RPSI OWES ITS EXISTENCE TODAY....…

The Irish will presumably resent the English for subsidising them.....and also for not subsidising them when finances drop...

[leslie10646]

Now, now Ivan! Used to be sort of true.

As the late "Mac" Arnold said to me on the platform at Gortalea on the first Two day tour after a three year hiatus in 1972:

"Too many Englishmen on this tour - MIND YOU, IF YOU HADN'T BROUGHT THEM OVER, THE TOUR WOULD NOT HAVE RUN .

It was the first year that I organised a party from England and the twenty or so of us made the difference. I did it for at least a decade, once FILLING a coach (fifty seats) on the Irish Mail. Then flying became cheaper and people did what @Mol_PMB is doing, booked it themselves!

The "Big Tour" always needed "British" support - my groups had a faithful bunch of Scots and the occasional Welshman.

[Galteemore]

17 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

Now, now Ivan! Used to be sort of true.

As the late "Mac" Arnold said to me on the platform at Gortalea on the first Two day tour after a three year hiatus in 1972:

"Too many Englishmen on this tour - MIND YOU, IF YOU HADN'T BROUGHT THEM OVER, THE TOUR WOULD NOT HAVE RUN .

It was the first year that I organised a party from England and the twenty or so of us made the difference. I did it for at least a decade, once FILLING a coach (fifty seats) on the Irish Mail. Then flying became cheaper and people did what @Mol_PMB is doing, booked it themselves!

The "Big Tour" always needed "British" support - my groups had a faithful bunch of Scots and the occasional Welshman.

Not to mention the financial contribution that the IRRS London area makes …..

[Niles]

Worth bearing in mind that, in this day and age, the non-enthusiast market are your bread and butter. As some of you know in my voluntary life I look after marketing for DCDR and Táilte Tours, in both cases it's the non-enthusiasts that make up the critical mass to make events viable. What's interesting is the old notion that you have to have steam to win the general public isn't necessarily the case, both groups I work with have had to use 1980s/90s vintage diesel railcar stock and with the right proposition non-enthusiasts will and do travel.

It's been a decade or so since I was involved with RPSI but the same rang true there too (non-enthusiasts being the main costumer base, not the railcars!). 

Edited March 14 by Niles

[Galteemore]

6 minutes ago, Niles said:

Worth bearing in mind that, in this day and age, the non-enthusiast market are your bread and butter. As some of you know in my voluntary life I look after marketing for DCDR and Táilte Tours, in both cases it's the non-enthusiasts that make up the critical mass to make events viable. What's interesting is the old notion that you have to have steam to win the general public isn't necessarily the case, both groups I work with have had to use 1980s/90s vintage diesel railcar stock and with the right proposition non-enthusiasts will and do travel.

It's been a decade or so since I was involved with RPSI but the same rang true there too (non-enthusiasts being the main costumer base, not the railcars!). 

The average punter on a heritage railway will not care what is up front. What they will care about, quite reasonably, is -

can I park easily?

are the toilets clean ?

is the food of acceptable quality for the price ?

Did the staff treat me as a guest or as an inconvenience?

[airfixfan]

In 2023 Translink.stated that the green Mk2s would need chemical toilets fitted soon!

[jhb171achill]

58 minutes ago, Niles said:

Worth bearing in mind that, in this day and age, the non-enthusiast market are your bread and butter. As some of you know in my voluntary life I look after marketing for DCDR and Táilte Tours, in both cases it's the non-enthusiasts that make up the critical mass to make events viable. What's interesting is the old notion that you have to have steam to win the general public isn't necessarily the case, both groups I work with have had to use 1980s/90s vintage diesel railcar stock and with the right proposition non-enthusiasts will and do travel.

It's been a decade or so since I was involved with RPSI but the same rang true there too (non-enthusiasts being the main costumer base, not the railcars!). 

It used to be the case that steam was needed, though isn’t now. Just as well!

But as you say, it’s the “normals” who pay the fares mostly, not “enthusiasts”.

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, airfixfan said:

In 2023 Translink.stated that the green Mk2s would need chemical toilets fitted soon!

All such things can be done, but they all cost money. There comes a point where it just isn't worth it any more, for the limited usage they get.

In the GB railtour market we've seen a series of mergers, takeovers and firms just closing down, to the point where there are now just a few big players each operating a fairly busy schedule. If the coaches are out working most weekends then they can earn the money to pay for enhancements like CET toilets, central door locking, new signalling systems etc. A rake that only runs a few times a year won't even pay for its maintenance and certification, let alone upgrades.

About 20 years ago I was employed to do an independent audit on RPSI loco and carriage maintenance policies and practices, including inspections of 2 carriages (1 north, 1 south) and a steam loco. They got a pretty good bill of health.

Anyway, I've booked my overpriced cheap hotel, my cattle-class flight and my excellent value RPSI diesel tour. No seats left in the bar car already!

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Now, now Ivan! Used to be sort of true....

Very much along the lines of what Oscar Wilde reputedly said:

"The only thing worse than being talked about....is not being talked about."

Edited March 14 by Horsetan

[Markleman]

4 hours ago, airfixfan said:

In 2023 Translink.stated that the green Mk2s would need chemical toilets fitted soon!

I understand that the permanent way staff are not keen on working in human waste.

If I worked on the track neither would I.

[Tractionman]

9 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Because it starts early in Dublin and gets back to Dublin late, I need 2 nights in a hotel in fairly central Dublin. Thats going to cost me the best part of EUR400. 

Add in some flights from/to Manchester, the cost of getting to/from the airport at both ends, and a budget for food/drink, and the cost of the rest of the trip (excluding the railtour itself) is going to be around EUR600.

From Manchester how about taking 'rail n sail' via Holyhead and taking the overnight boat to Dublin? Or driving to Holyhead and taking the ferry over, there's loads of sailings.

 

 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Markleman said:

I understand that the permanent way staff are not keen on working in human waste.

If I worked on the track neither would I.

Indeed. In days past, that's the way it was. But it's changed times now. Before the Mk 2 yokes were forcibly retired from use on the main line, this issue was being discussed anyway. It does seem likely that the RPSI would be hit with this sooner rather than later. Another nail in the coffin for any chance of northern trips becoming self-supporting, as the cost per coach is apparently high. I recall a figure being quoted - can't remember now what it was, but these vehicles would have to be putting up a high mileage to make it viable. And, seemingly, there isn't the market for that.

[airfixfan]

50k per chemical toilet us a rough figure

[Mol_PMB]

9 hours ago, Tractionman said:

From Manchester how about taking 'rail n sail' via Holyhead and taking the overnight boat to Dublin? Or driving to Holyhead and taking the ferry over, there's loads of sailings.

20-odd years ago the tran and ferry option would definitely have been my first choice. 

In recent years they have become much worse for the foot passenger or 'rail n sail' option, because:

• Several routes no longer take foot passengers at all (e.g. Liverpool-Dublin)
• There are fewer fast ferries on the routes and what used to be the best route (Holyhead-Dun Laoghaire) no longer operates - there's no longer the seamless option to walk direct from train to ship
• The transfer facilities for foot passengers at the Dublin Port end are unreliable/non-existent
• GB rail services are unreliable
• The rail n sail tickets are no longer so readily available
• The prices are often more expensive than flying
• The journey time is much longer than flying

For this particular trip, I could avoid the main expense of a hotel in Dublin by taking the overnight ferry from Holyhead (dep 0130, arr 0500) and then hope that I can get to Connolly in time for the train (probably by walking there). But that's hardly a restful night, and there's considerable jeopardy in the connections. For me, it's just not a sensible option nor a pleasant one for what is supposed to be a holiday.

[Tractionman]

It's a pity @Mol_PMB that 'rail n sail' isn't made as easy as it should be, it's the same trying to get from NI across to GB too, not sure why Stena Birkenhead ferries aren't part of 'rail n sail' as at least the port is near a railway station!

Yes fair enough, if it's a holiday then sleeping overnight on a ferry floor is not going to be a fun experience.

[Galteemore]

It’s a real shame. I used to travel regularly from Edinburgh to Belfast in the early 90s. Direct train from Edinburgh to Stranraer-with catering- and step straight off train on to ferry. That journey would be much less pleasant now.

[jhb171achill]

Anyone remember the old LMS boats that were still plying the Irish Sea in the mid 1960s?

[airfixfan]

Yes in those days flying was too expensive

[Tractionman]

31 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Yes in those days flying was too expensive

Nowadays it's the other way around

[IrishTrainScenes]

On 14/3/2025 at 11:12 AM, airfixfan said:

Another factor for NIR trips is that the green Mk2s have not been on the mainline for 27 months now.  Most of them have not left the carriage shed for 2 years now.  Plus Translink do not allow the Blue GMs on charter trains

 Groups I know made enquiries but we're rebuffed

Perhaps when crews start back NIR may allow the 111s to operate them on ECS?

[jhb171achill]

23 minutes ago, IrishTrainScenes said:

Perhaps when crews start back NIR may allow the 111s to operate them on ECS?

If they haven’t withdrawn them. It seems there’s nothing for them to do any more.