The CIE Supertrain

[colmflanagan]

Hello All,

 

I am looking for some clarification on the "Supertrain" brand of CIE. This is triggered byt ehfact that i haev for review some MM 071s, and one is labelled as being in "original CIE livery" - a more tan shade, the iother as "supertrain" livery (186sa) which is more orangey. Now I know the tan did vary anyway towards orange and there are photos of different shades well intot he nineties..

 

It is my recollection (which may be faulty) that the "supertrain" term was coined for use with the Mk2d coaches which arrived in 1972, I have a publicity shot taken of an 001 class with them on the line to Wexford, I think. This was of course 4 years before the 071s arrived, and would suggest, that all 071s from the start were "supertrain" livery, whatever the shade? Or is there another explanation, which Paddy Murphy may have unearthed in his researches (I haven't asked him about it yet). Has anyone any publicity material from CIE which would explain?

 

Colm Flanagan

 

I don't know if this has been touched on on the MM thread but at 50+ pages I thoguht it quicker and simpler to post a new thread, as its not really about the model anyway.

[heirflick]

colm, found this pic of 071 being shipped from the states...

 

[UP6936]

when the 071s arrived in Dublin, it was found that GM had painted them a more 'brownish' shade than normal CIE supertrain orange. they also had white 'broken wheels' as opposed to the orange ones applied by CIE. therefor the original livery would be the colour they arrived from the States in (the more tan one). they all received the normal orange the first time they went to inchicore for a repaint. hope that cleared it up a but for you, and if you have any more questions on the topic feel free to ask

[colmflanagan]

Ah. so that is what happened. Many thanks - as a matter of interest did they ALL arriive in that tan livery? Presumably some ran about in it for a year or two.

 

Colm

[UP6936]

yep pretty certain they all did. and yes you are right they did stay like that for a couple of years, I think they just got repainted when the went for maintenance rather than an actual repaint program as such

[108]

Hi Colm. From memory the colour as supplied was the darker tan colour. As well as the white logos there was another difference from the Supertrain colour scheme. The 071's had a tan background to the headlight surrounds instead of the usual white. The Murphy Models seem to be accurate representations of these variations.

[jhb171achill]

The shade they were delivered in was considerably "browner" than the standard at the time; from my observations the model version has standard orange? I haven't seen one in the flesh but this would be incorrect. As suggested above, at first repaint they received "proper" CIE livery - including a correct sized and coloured logo on each end, rather than the slightly larger one with white surround as applied by La Grange.

 

All were delivered in this La Grange version, thus all were in service in this livery. All were repainted as outlined above as and when repainting became due.

[UP6936]

I agree jhb, the Murphys original livery 071s do seem too orange, as I compared the photo on the modelshopbelfast website to my model of a supertrain 181, and it would appear to be the same shade. Considering the excellent standard of the Murphys 071s in general, I wonder why this was done incorrectly?

[jhb171achill]

UP6936 - I suppose there's always room for an error somewhere... it has to be said though that the overall standard of Murphy's Models is absolutely stunning and we'd be a great deal poorer without them.... but in original livery they should not be the standard CIE orange.

[Mayner]

The February 1973 Irish Railfans News includes original CIE publicity posters "Travel the Tomorrow way Today" of the original Supertrain on the Wexford Line in the Vale of Avoca and on the section below Vico Road Killiney.

 

001 looks especially smart with a possibly unique version of the Supertrain livery with the centre section of the roof painted black.

 

The original concept behind the Supertrain was to run a relatively frequent service of short trains similar to the Midland Railway in the early 1900s. This policy came unstuck when service frequency was cut back following the oil crisis in the early 70s and something more powerful was required than the existing power to keep time with the increasingly heavier less frequent.

 

Up to the widespread introduction of the MK3s the heaviest main-line trains tended to be made up of conventional rather than Supertrain stock. Most of the morning trains out of Dublin to the provinces and the up evening working tended to be made up of conventional stock, with Supertrains used on the more lightly loaded but prestigious morning Up trains and Down evening workings the successors of the expresses of the 1960s.

 

Lines like Westport, Sligo & Rosslare were almost exclusively conventional stock until enough MK3ss were available to cascade the MK2D to these secondary main lines

 

The 071 were definitely introduced in a darker shade of brown to that used by CIE, and the locos seem to become increasingly grimy in service possibly because their excellent reliability allowed really intensive use and less time on shed than the 001s which were never as reliable at the thoroughbred GMs

Edited September 28, 2013 by Mayner

[BSGSV]

Ah. so that is what happened. Many thanks - as a matter of interest did they ALL arriive in that tan livery? Presumably some ran about in it for a year or two.

 

Rather more than a year or two. Repaints in the mid- to late 1980's, and I suspect that some may have gone straight from "GM Brown" to the ir livery.

 

CIE/IR/IE "orange/tan" is probably going to be as contentious an issue as CIE Green. The latter day orange appears (to me at least) brighter than the previous orange and I would ascribe the change to Inchicore Paint Shop going over to two-pack paint in the early-2000's. The previous sprayed orange was between latter-day orange and CIE "golden brown". CIE did change suppliers over the years, and this could have led to slight variations in batches supplied too.

[minister_for_hardship]

The February 1973 Irish Railfans News includes original CIE publicity posters "Travel the Tomorrow way Today" of the original Supertrain on the Wexford Line in the Vale of Avoca and on the section below Vico Road Killiney.

 

001 looks especially smart with a possibly unique version of the Supertrain livery with the centre section of the roof painted black.

 

 

Is this the same Supertrain publicity pics with the loco, rather bizarrely, carrying steam era oil headlamps painted white?

[enniscorthyman]

There is a IRRS journal from 2008 that pays homage to

the Brel MK 2d coaches.It shows the coaches in 1972 in

various experimental liverys at Inchicore works.

[RedRich]

There is a IRRS journal from 2008 that pays homage to

the Brel MK 2d coaches.It shows the coaches in 1972 in

various experimental liverys at Inchicore works.

 

Sounds interesting Eamonn. I have heard about it before, but I've never seen any pictures of the liveries, what were they like. I would love to have seen them in the original livery that the Cravens carried.

 

Rich,

[jhb171achill]

"

CIE/IR/IE "orange/tan" is probably going to be as contentious an issue as CIE Green. "

 

True, but it needn't be, as ample photographic evidence exists. As far as green is concerned, CIE used the dark brunswick green shade now to be seen on 800 in Cultra. This is original, as i have compared it with a board painted in the 1940s with the Dublin United Tramways green - which it was a direct copy of. No modern theories, no copies of paint on models, can overwrite this. The example I mention is to be seen as a background to the DUTC coat of arms on the wall of Headhunter's Railway Museum in Enniskillen, who I gave it to, along with a collection of other Irish railway coats of arms, all which bear ORIGINAL paint - for those interested! An original DUTC "Flying Snail" is there too - and the green matches 800. This is the dark green, not what 461 carries now, by the way. (Though to be fair, it is VERY close, and the RPSI as always did a SUPERB job!).

 

This green existed from 1941 (DUTC), then 1945 (CIE) until the mid fifties. The light green which followed is on DCDR's TPO and the Dublin based RPSI Heritage set.

 

So that's the green.

 

Orange and derivitaves: The original from 1962 lasted until about 1988 / 90, when a lighter more "orangey" shade came in, as now seen on remaining Mk 3's. Locomotives started appearing in this shade from early 90s.

 

The colour GM delivered the 071s in was no more orange than it was CIE green! It was a light brown colour, albeit with an orangy tint. Quite a dull shade - in fact, it even made the OLDER orange livery on carriages look very bright beside it.

[enniscorthyman]

Sounds interesting Eamonn. I have heard about it before, but I've never seen any pictures of the liveries, what were they like. I would love to have seen them in the original livery that the Cravens carried.

 

Rich,

Rich.

 

Journal no 166-june 2008 has these photos of the expermentinal

livery for the mk2ds and well worth tracking down.

 

And Journal no 161 October 2006 has a feature on the craven coaches.

[RedRich]

Cheers Eamonn, I love the pic on journal 161, Cravens, GSV, and 121's double headed. It doesn't get much better.

 

Rich,

[BSGSV]

"Orange and derivitaves: The original from 1962 lasted until about 1988 / 90, when a lighter more "orangey" shade came in, as now seen on remaining Mk 3's. Locomotives started appearing in this shade from early 90s.

 

I tend to describe the 1962 onwards colour as "golden brown" to differentiate it from the orange(s). I suspect the change from one to the other came when Inchicore stopped brush painting and went onto spraying, but I'm not sure when that was.

[jhb171achill]

Yes, BSGSV, it was about that time. The IRRS also referred to the original tan as "golden brown", so you're in good company! It certainly had a brownish tint, though the unique La Grange "tan" was more light brown than anything else before or since.

 

I've just had a few unrelated thoughts on liveries - see my separate post under tips and tricks!