Steam railcars

[Mol_PMB]

I just noticed this over on RMweb:

Frying Tonight: LNER ‘Chip Vans’ Sentinel Cammell Railcars Join The Heljan 00 Range - Heljan - RMweb

I wonder if we might see a GSR version? They had 4 similar Sentinel railcars, though they weren't identical.

[Mol_PMB]

There's a fairly decent dimensioned diagram of the GSR railcars in the IRRS archive, which I have a scan of. 

They were numbers 354, 355, 356, 357, all built in 1927.

355 and 356 seem to have survived to at least 1942, but had been withdrawn by 1950. The other two went earlier.

They were similar to the contemporary Diagram 88 LNER vehicles, but I think the Heljan model represents a slightly later variant - Diagram 96/97.

Edited Thursday at 10:40 by Mol_PMB
added diagram numbers

[Galteemore]

One of the Sentinels ended its days on the SLNC. A bogie was used as a luggage trailer for Railbus A! 

[Mol_PMB]

There's an IRRS photo of 355 here:

HDF_GSR_355_Limerick_1935 | [Photographer: Harold Fayle] Thi… | Flickr

The book 'Great Southern Railways' (Murray) has a photo of one on page 77; that shows the other side (but the same end)

 

There are strong styling similarities but many detail differences, not least that the GSR cars (and earlier LNER cars) were articulated, while the later ones (as modelled by Heljan) have a one-piece carbody. Nevertheless, the LMS-liveried model with a change of lettering probably wouldn't look out of place on a GSR layout.

[Mol_PMB]

Or there is this:

NIU3002 - LNER (Diagram 89) Sentinel Rail Car - OO Gauge - AVAILABLE AT END OF JANUARY

[Westcorkrailway]

Would these be the same? Colm creedon has photos of them on the Newmarket branch, also has photos of them in use at Albert quay, where they worked some branchline on trials 

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I just noticed this over on RMweb:

Frying Tonight: LNER ‘Chip Vans’ Sentinel Cammell Railcars Join The Heljan 00 Range - Heljan - RMweb

I wonder if we might see a GSR version? They had 4 similar Sentinel railcars, though they weren't identical.

I wonder if there'll ever be a kit for the Drumm battery cars?

[Mol_PMB]

A good find!

Yes, those pics show one of the GSR cars - it looks like 357. Interesting to hear about the use in West Cork - maybe Kinsale?

The NIU Models kit looks very close to the GSR type.

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

I wonder if there'll ever be a kit for the Drumm battery cars?

If you drum up enough support then I suppose they might cell enough to make it worthwhile. It would depend how much they charge.

 

These steam railcars are too early for me, but tempting!

[Turin60]

Is this the current froth subject.

Hat & coat time?

John Bruce.

[leslie10646]

19 hours ago, Horsetan said:

I wonder if there'll ever be a kit for the Drumm battery cars?

@Fran and Co really do get high marks for this vehicle - pity it isn't like the irish articulated one - which ended up steam-hauled! It has certainly evoked plenty of comment. I had no idea that there were so many of them and for so long!

A pity that I already have a GWR steam railcar - but with its outside motion it was more like the GNR one!

Drumm? With A1 and 3D, it's a matter of time? 

Still we mustn't rub it in to the English that the Irish thought of it first.

And then  there's the Sainted Paddy's BEMU ........

[Mol_PMB]

The Drumms must have been the only vehicles in Ireland to have operated with steam, diesel and electric traction. I have now found two photos of them in use as AEC railcar intermediates.

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

The Drumms must have been the only vehicles in Ireland to have operated with steam, diesel and electric traction...

Irish expediency. 

[Mayner]

There is some useful information of the Sentinel and Clayton railmotors in Locomotives of the GSR.

Although Sentinel railcars appear to have worked passenger services on the Cashel, Newmarket and Foynes branches a Sentinel also appears to have been used between Limerick, Nenagh and Ballybrophy.  I remember reading somewhere possibly IRRS Journal that Sentinel railcars were used on the Newmarket & Foynes branches because the branch good were worked by Mallow and Limerick based locos running through to the branch terminus (in UK terms a "Trip Working" or Turn) as opposed to a branch lijne loco based at Newmarket or Foynes. Its possible the Cashel 'goods" may have been worked by a Limerick Junction or Thurles loco. In its final days of operation the Edenderry Branch goods and occasionaal trips over the Meath Line to Drumree,-Kilmessan were worked by the Liffey Junction G611 Class pilot.

GSR Locomotives includes information on some unusual Sentinel or Clayton working on the Midland including: A 1928-- 11:10 all stations Mullingar-Sligo railcar which ran attached to the rear of the Cavan train as far as Inny Junction and 11:30 return from Sligo! 

Day returnes from Mullingar to Athlone & Athenry  1930 records 354,355 & 357 at work in the Western District, 356 in the Southern District.

Claytons 359,361 and 362 initially tried on Westland Row-Dalkey and Harcourt St-Foxrock suburban services. Also tried Mullingar-Sligo, Cork-Macroom and Cork-Clonakilty 'but only for relatively short periods at each location as they proved markedly less successful than the Sentinel version"  1930 -358,359 and 361 Midland District, 363 in Southern District.

Problems identified tendency to run short of steam (could not cope with greades on Foxrock services and having to stop for a "blow up" and considerable periods out of service under repair. Clayton went into liquidation 1929 resulting in problems obtaining spare parts.

So potentially Sentinel and Clayton steam railmotors in 'GSR Purple Lake"  livery working branch line passenger trains, short distance suburban and main-line feeder services. 

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks John, most interesting.

The Clayton carriage portions ended up on the W&T, the Sentinels seem to have been a bit ore successful in service but may not have had that subsequent life as hauled stock?

There's a detailed article on the LNER ones here, which also mentions some of the issues with performance and reliability:

LNER Encyclopedia: The Sentinel Steam Railcars

 

[seagoebox]

[seagoebox]

Nice 8- page article in Rail Archive no 3 "The Rise and Fall of the STEAM RAIL MOTOR"

The GSR Clayton cars were well covered in the Railway Gazette, 2nd November 1928

[jhb171achill]

On 23/4/2026 at 11:36 AM, Mol_PMB said:

There's a fairly decent dimensioned diagram of the GSR railcars in the IRRS archive, which I have a scan of. 

They were numbers 354, 355, 356, 357, all built in 1927.

355 and 356 seem to have survived to at least 1942, but had been withdrawn by 1950. The other two went earlier.

They were similar to the contemporary Diagram 88 LNER vehicles, but I think the Heljan model represents a slightly later variant - Diagram 96/97.

I agree it would be a great model to have! Withdrawal dates -  354 & 357 in 1941; 355 &356 in 1942. It is possible, though, that while out of traffic, one or two hung about covered in brambles in Inchicore for some years afterwards!

As for liveries, they only ever carried GSR (= LMS) maroon. I don't think they had any lining. They had two GSR crests on each side latterly, though only one (as would be more to be expected) originally.

 

Edited 22 hours ago by jhb171achill

[Mol_PMB]

The Heljan Sentinel model isn't exactly right but has the right character and wouldn't look out of place. It's available in LMS livery which could be easily tweaked to GSR 

The NiU models kit is much closer to the GSR type (still not identical, but you have to look carefully to spot the differences), but of course it needs building and painting. Because it's a kit it may be possible to kitbash it slightly into an even closer representation.

NIU3002 - LNER (Diagram 89) Sentinel Rail Car - OO Gauge - AVAILABLE AT END OF JANUARY

I reckon it would look pretty good in CIE green. But I've got far too much in the kit stash already!

 

[Colonel]

19 hours ago, Mayner said:

There is some useful information of the Sentinel and Clayton railmotors in Locomotives of the GSR.

Although Sentinel railcars appear to have worked passenger services on the Cashel, Newmarket and Foynes branches a Sentinel also appears to have been used between Limerick, Nenagh and Ballybrophy.  I remember reading somewhere possibly IRRS Journal that Sentinel railcars were used on the Newmarket & Foynes branches because the branch good were worked by Mallow and Limerick based locos running through to the branch terminus (in UK terms a "Trip Working" or Turn) as opposed to a branch lijne loco based at Newmarket or Foynes. Its possible the Cashel 'goods" may have been worked by a Limerick Junction or Thurles loco. In its final days of operation the Edenderry Branch goods and occasionaal trips over the Meath Line to Drumree,-Kilmessan were worked by the Liffey Junction G611 Class pilot.

GSR Locomotives includes information on some unusual Sentinel or Clayton working on the Midland including: A 1928-- 11:10 all stations Mullingar-Sligo railcar which ran attached to the rear of the Cavan train as far as Inny Junction and 11:30 return from Sligo! 

Day returnes from Mullingar to Athlone & Athenry  1930 records 354,355 & 357 at work in the Western District, 356 in the Southern District.

Claytons 359,361 and 362 initially tried on Westland Row-Dalkey and Harcourt St-Foxrock suburban services. Also tried Mullingar-Sligo, Cork-Macroom and Cork-Clonakilty 'but only for relatively short periods at each location as they proved markedly less successful than the Sentinel version"  1930 -358,359 and 361 Midland District, 363 in Southern District.

Problems identified tendency to run short of steam (could not cope with greades on Foxrock services and having to stop for a "blow up" and considerable periods out of service under repair. Clayton went into liquidation 1929 resulting in problems obtaining spare parts.

So potentially Sentinel and Clayton steam railmotors in 'GSR Purple Lake"  livery working branch line passenger trains, short distance suburban and main-line feeder services. 

So, potential for a steam railcar on Northport Quay then...

Like Mol, ain't happening anytime soon though - for one thing, I'd have to start a whole new period of modelling and three separate lots of stock seems a bit extreme for a small layout.

[Mayner]

19 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

As for liveries, they only ever carried GSR (= LMS) maroon. I don't think they had any lining. They had two GSR crests on each side latterly, though only one (as would be more to be expected) originally.

I suspect that the Sentinel and Clayton railmotors were originally introduced in the GSR purple lake livery when introduced in 1927-28. There is a 1929 HC Casserley photo in Locomotives of Clayton No 360 at Mullingar Shed with fully lined out large class numerals on the doors & 2 GSR crests on the side.

Colm Creedon's photo of 357 on the Newmarket Branch (closed to passenger traffic early 1930s scheduled goods traffic 1947?) from Westcorkrailways post apperes to be in as introduced condition with lining & 1 crest!

Photos of Sentinel 356 at inchacore (running shed and concrete coal tower in background appear to be unlined possibly Mid 1930s GSR Maroon livery with 2 crests!

Personally the main issue in using the Heljan LNER Sentinel to represent a GSR Sentinel is that it just doesn't have the low-slung appearance of the Irish Sentinel railmotors with the underframe largely hidden and buffer beam part way up the body. A bit like a Hymek or a Class 33 in CIE livery masquerading as an Irish loco

[jhb171achill]

35 minutes ago, Mayner said:

I suspect that the Sentinel and Clayton railmotors were originally introduced in the GSR purple lake livery when introduced in 1927-28. There is a 1929 HC Casserley photo in Locomotives of Clayton No 360 at Mullingar Shed with fully lined out large class numerals on the doors & 2 GSR crests on the side.

Colm Creedon's photo of 357 on the Newmarket Branch (closed to passenger traffic early 1930s scheduled goods traffic 1947?) from Westcorkrailways post apperes to be in as introduced condition with lining & 1 crest!

Photos of Sentinel 356 at inchacore (running shed and concrete coal tower in background appear to be unlined possibly Mid 1930s GSR Maroon livery with 2 crests!

Personally the main issue in using the Heljan LNER Sentinel to represent a GSR Sentinel is that it just doesn't have the low-slung appearance of the Irish Sentinel railmotors with the underframe largely hidden and buffer beam part way up the body. A bit like a Hymek or a Class 33 in CIE livery masquerading as an Irish loco

Yes, the earlier ones arrived in the dark purple lake. Fry’s model of one appears to carry that actual paint. The 1927 ones, though, shown above, were likely “LMS”-shade maroon from new, although the GSR did use the darker shade for a while after the amalgamation.