Model Railway Operations

[mfjoc]

Following on from my latest post in the layout section I thought a general discussion on layout operation would be interesting. Has anyone else on the forum got a layout that has more than one station and runs prototypically based operating sessions? Does anyone go to operation sessions on a friend’s layout? Are people interested in model railway operations?

I love models of any type, ships, planes, cars etc but there is something about model trains that has been etched into my DNA by my grandmother who bought me my first train set at six years of age. I love looking at them, but I also love that model trains can run on a model railway layout.  

One of my heroes was the late Richard Chown. Richard was an Englishman living in Scotland who modeled Irish railways. His 0 Gauge Castle Rackrent layout was amazing, The layout was based on an imaginary branch of the WL&WR that connected with the MGWR and set around 1900. The layout was a single track main line with multiple stations and two branches one to the MGWR and a market branch. During the 1970’s and 1980’s he would take various parts of the layout to exhibitions. Even at exhibitions it was always operated in a prototypical manner with block signals and bell codes.  Later on he built a house with a big enough basement to set up the whole layout on a permanent basis. He used to hold operating sessions regularly and could keep up to 12 operators busy.  I was lucky enough to see the whole layout in operation at one of his famous Ceilidh’s and had to be dragged kicking and screaming out of the hall.  Scenery was important to him as well but secondary to operation. Another layout I was lucky to see in operation was Sam Carse’s County Donegal layout. This was purely operational with 3 rail Hornby 00 track but with hand built rolling stock. Sam also operated using bell codes and block working.

I assume that the biggest constraint is that anything more than a branch terminus takes up a lot of space. I am lucky that part of the deal when we downsized was my garden room.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

[Galteemore]

That’s most interesting. I saw Drew Donaldson’s layout about 50 years ago, which was operated to a timetable. Part of the ‘evolution’ of model railways towards more scenery and detail has been a dropping off in prototypical operation. Many show layouts simply run trains - nothing wrong with that - but an older generation (Peter Denny, Norman Eagles etc) emphasised operating. I find it quite an attractive idea - the issue may be finding your staff! You can of course have one station and still run a prototypical operation with proper signalling, bells etc. Some day I’d love a layout with proper bell codes etc going on…  there’s a few books around about how to do this, but as a start, get yourself one of Denny’s books on Buckingham

 

[Mol_PMB]

Some years ago, I really enjoyed a couple of operating sessions on Allan Garraway's layout at Boat of Garten. This was coarse scale O gauge, but huge and complex with several stations, junctions and many route options. It was fully signalled with mechanical interlockings and block working with bell codes. To run a full session required up to 10 people, half signallers and half train drivers. 

I have also spent an evening on the L&YR signalling school training layout now at the NRM in York. Very instructive.

My partly-built Swiss layout (a long-term project) will represent a complete branch line, including the main line junction station, and several stations and halts on the branch. That is also designed for operation.

While I do enjoy operation, unfortunately I enjoy building rolling stock the most. So I tend to end up with lots of rolling stock and series of half-completed layouts that never reach their potential...

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, mfjoc said:

Following on from my latest post in the layout section I thought a general discussion on layout operation would be interesting. Has anyone else on the forum got a layout that has more than one station and runs prototypically based operating sessions? Does anyone go to operation sessions on a friend’s layout? Are people interested in model railway operations?

There have been a small number of useful layouts meeting these requirements, including:

Borchester Market (OO)

Ambergate (originally EM, but now P4)

and from time to time magazines such as the now defunct Great Western Railway Journal would publish articles on operations at real locations such as Penzance, accompanied by a track diagram.

I still think a FREMO network would give everyone the best chance of operating to a common standard, with trains visibly going from place to place and covering quite a distance in the process.

[Mol_PMB]

I think the nature of a layout based on operation tends to be unsuitable for exhibitions. It is usually very large and requires a lot of people to operate.

One of my favourite features on Allan Garraway's layout was that he had sawn a notch in one of the roof trusses of his house to provide adequate signal sighting - not for the full size human train driver, but for the imaginary bod in the cab of the loco!

Many of his locos were powered by war-surplus motors, oversized but very powerful and controllable. Most of his coaches were basic like Lima Mk1s, but the play value was immense (even for a big group of adults) and there were some beautiful models among them too. Generally the locos had prototypical haulage capacity and speed as well.

[Horsetan]

10 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I think the nature of a layout based on operation tends to be unsuitable for exhibitions. It is usually very large and requires a lot of people to operate...

...ironically, that's why FREMO works, because it's an exhibition in itself.

[Galteemore]

20 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I think the nature of a layout based on operation tends to be unsuitable for exhibitions. It is usually very large and requires a lot of people to operate.

 

And unless you are modelling something like a main line running into a big city, you won’t be running many trains! As has been observed elsewhere, on such layouts, movements tend to be sparser and more drawn out than the paying public might like. Imagine a layout based on a typical Irish branch with about 6 train moves a day if you are lucky !

[Mol_PMB]

10 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

And unless you are modelling something like a main line running into a big city, you won’t be running many trains! As has been observed elsewhere, on such layouts, movements tend to be sparser and more drawn out than the paying public might like. Imagine a layout based on a typical Irish branch with about 6 train moves a day if you are lucky !

Sounds like the exhibitors could spend the Sunday of the exhibition in the nearest pub...

[Galteemore]

7 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Sounds like the exhibitors could spend the Sunday of the exhibition in the nearest pub...

After attending Mass of course  

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

And unless you are modelling something like a main line running into a big city, you won’t be running many trains! As has been observed elsewhere, on such layouts, movements tend to be sparser and more drawn out than the paying public might like. Imagine a layout based on a typical Irish branch with about 6 train moves a day if you are lucky !

A typical Irish rural branch would have but one loco out-stationed at the terminus and it did two or three return trips to the junction each day, with the same two or three-sixwheelers, or a single bogie composite and a 6-wheeled brake van (later a tin van if it was a C class diesel). Two trips, typically, would be passenger and the other mixed - so a full day's (one-man!) operation would be three return trips of the same set, with maybe half a dozen goods vans and a guard's van at the back of one of them! On many of these branches (Achill, Loughrea as examples) virtually all the traffic was inwards, with mostl empty wagons going back to the junction. Beet, GAA, pilgrimages and fair days might bring another loco in - very often of the same type!

So, on the negative side, a bit like today's Tralee or Sligo; zero variety, nothing but ICRs coming and going, like a Luas stop. On the p[ositive side, easy for ONE person to operate prototypically, and every operational session can be a fair day or a GAA special day as well.... 

I wondered about this when designing Dugort Harbour.It is a basic end-to-end set-up, with a fiddle yard at one end and a small terminus at the other. In the middle is a "main line" station. This is in place for operational interest. I COULD have had something I could operate like the Waterford & Tramore. If I wanted to be realistic, I'd have a J15 and four coaches, or a three-car AEC set, just going back and forth like a shuttle on a loom. Anyone would get tired of that in 2 minutes flat.

Thinking of Baltimore and Valentia Harbour, where the "main line" stopped short (Cahirciveen & Skib), and what almost amounted to a local service went on through the overgrown hedges a few miles more to a barren and tiny terminus seemed the answer. Westport and Westport Quay would be another example. So, a train leaving the fiddle yard is a "main line" set - a Woolwich and four corridor bogies, or a 141 with later designs. This has come from Dublin, ir Cork, Athlone, whatever, and is bound for the station in the middle, which in my case is a fictitious Castletown West. A separate goods train with a larger engine and all sorts of stuff on it - grain, timber in Bullied opens, goods vans of all types galore. Large cattle town (Castleisland / Newcastle West). There the main line train terminates, with a connecting service of a mixed train from there to the Dugort Harbour.

This gives operational interest - main line goods, main line passenger (with one a day perhaps working through to the harbour), then a branch mixed.

Even a set-up like that in steam days would likely have had a sole diet of J15s like Valentia or Kernmare did, certainly in latter days. From 1955-63, Loughrea almost never saw anything but a J18/19, even on fair days (though earlier it had more variety). In diesel days, you're looking in real life at a system operated by nothing but an AEC set on passenger, and a C on the branch. Even the main line goods might be a C (or an A). Fast forward to the 60s, 70s and 80s, and you've thiry years of little but 141s! (Which is why I've 6 or 7...).

There is a timetable, but this is basically a running sequence, e.g. first movement of the day is main line passenger heading off to the fiddle yard "metropolis". Then the ex-Cork goods arrives, followed by the ex-Tralee goods. Much shunting ensues, followed by the branch mixed bumbling off to the harbour and returning in time to transfer wagons to the departing goods. And so on. 

I had considered full signalling, bell codes, the FULL works in that regard, but in all reality life's too short and I am not in my first flush of youth.  So what I have described does me fine. I have a WTT with the basic timetable, plus as in real life paths for beet, cattle, GAA, pilgrimages, fair day extras, summer Sunday excursions, and the like. When you have a winter day with 2 beet specials and a busy cattle fair day, the shunting challengers are surprisingly complex and an extra pilot loco is needed to deal with everything in a realistic manner.

When operating steam, the branch is a former MGWR 2.4.0 (JM Design), with an ex-CBSCR 472 class 0.6.0ST (00 Works) as station pilot, and the main line has Woolwiches and J15s (both types; 00 Works). When it's late steam days, main line goods are beginning to see (silver or green) "A" class, and I had two Silverfox "C"'s. Into the 1960s and the black'n'tan era, and it's A's on the main line goods, and 141s on just about everything else. Should a RTR "C" class ever appear, I'll be in for a few of those, as such a line would probably have been monopolised by them (think West Cork, especially if the Bantry passenger had remained loco-hauled - the whole system would have been worked by the C class in its final years).

I based operations on the real life 1960 West Cork timetable, where you've two return trips a day from Bantry to Cork and back, plus goods. But in my scenario, it's as if there was a Westport-Quay-like "extension" from Bantry, but with a passenger service, worked as a separate branch locally. I concocted suitable times for that which would logically connect with a real-life main terminus whose arrivels and departures mirrored those at Bantry.

So overall, much to occupy me in the attic on what otherwise is a basic end-to-end single track line.

Each to our own, of course, but that suits me as a good compromise between absolute, 100% fully signalled operation, and just playing trains.

I saw Drew's layout once, and Sam Carse's once. I'd love to have seen Richard Chown's - I recall the article about it in a Railway modeller in the late 1960s - that's one copy I read and re-read from the day I bought it. Sam's sons, Barry & David Carse, were among the extremely privileged few CHILDREN to be allowed to see Cyril Fry's layout in full operation - normally Fry didn't allow children in at all, but Sam was a friend of his! Barry told me that they were warned to stand still, and not ask questions until they were asked if they wanted to!

 

Edited yesterday at 20:12 by jhb171achill

[Colonel]

For solo operation, the American short line concept is an interesting one. Their layouts are often big, occupying the whole basement, but the idea is that a single train (essentially a pick up goods) runs the whole, multi depot line, picking up and dropping off box cars along the way.

 Add in dcc sound, along with a brake simulator on the controller and operation can become extremely realistic.

[mfjoc]

From what I have seen on Youtube and from being a suscriber to Model Railroader in the past is that the americans either have huge layouts in their basements operated by a gang of people or short lines but still with operating potential. Here Dugort Harbour and Patricks layout before he had to dismantle it are closest to that concept. A single track branch with multiple stations. Scenic developement on both are way above anything I hope to achieve. The initial Castle Rackrent terminus was small but every siding and every spot had a purpose so at exhibitions the passenger train didn't just shunt back and forward. Wagons were spotted at the dock, the mill the good siding etc. He used home made Jackson couplings. The big advantage of a smaller layout is that you can change era just by changing the rolling stock. From 1900 up to the mid 1970's the railway infastructure hardly changed at all. Track layouts, signalling, buildings in a station could be set in 1900 or 1970 or even 1980, when a branch line closed the junction track layout hardly changed and often the stub was used for storing old rolling stock. The only thing that was substantially different was the rolling stock. From the mid 70's on things did change substantially with CTC, Railplan 80 etc.

Before Paddy and  IRM arrived on the scene I bough a large amount of american HO equipment as I was not happy with the running qualities or Hornby or Lima.

It would be a huge job to change but maybe some time in the future the W&DJR will become the Denver Terminal and I can watch my Californial Zeypher leave Union station and head up the front range.

Rule number one!

[Mayner]

I always seem to have been interested in model railway operations and down the years built a number of Irish and American layouts where prototypical operation was an important factor.

Irish outline branch/secondary main line bedroom layout late 1970s-early 80s

My first successful layout was N gauge Irish outline inspired by Richard Chown's Castle Rackrent system and Brian McCann's N gauge Bagnallstown (compact double track oval, but with beautifully modeled buildings, structures and scenery).

My layout was single line tracked terminus to fiddle yard with intermediate station/junction with goods only branch, with sequence operation based on Sligo/Mayo line. U shaped shelf layout in 11'X11' bedroom in my parents house during the late 70s early 80s

Pair of 121s working 3 times daily Intercity services to Dublin, 141 working local goods services (Sugar beet in opens, Oil  or Pallet Cement (6 wagon cut)and Night Mail to the 'main line" and 001 working the overnight goods or Liner to the North Wall. Locos stock was repainted/modified British/American rtr, CIE diesels American rtr chassis with modified or scratchbuilt plasticard bodies. Operation was reasonably reliable usually operated before lunch on Sundays, could run reasonable length trains 2 locos and 5 coaches on Intercity passenger, up to 15 4w wagons on goods. Layout was dismantled as a result of a housemove during the early 80s.

American outline N scale attic layout early 2000s

Years later I erected an "American Style" N gauge operating layout in the 17'X8' attic of my home, layout featured a single track folded 8 track plan to maximise length of run with a Division Point (marshalling yard, loco depot at junction between two lines) as focal point and scenic section with tall steel trestle and small station with passing siding (loop) and industry spur (powerstation) a secondary focal point.

Again the focus was on sequence operation running the long distance symbol freights (scheduled) that operated over the section of line modelled, even with 2-3 operators (2 drivers 1 dispatcher/controller/signalman) we were too busy running the scheduled freights to have time to switch/shunt the local industries, or operate the pusher/banker over the hilly scenic section that was such a feature of the prototype. Apart from the change from Irish to American outline was the conversion to DCC in 2000 and uprating of powersupply/control system to run multiple multi-unit power consists (2-5 locos) and DCC control of points in the staging and most of the main line reflecting the CTC control used on the prototype.  Running the 4-5 scheduled freights required up to 15 locos and 100 freight cars!

All good things come to an end and layout was dismantled before we moved to New Zealand in 2004.

Colorado narrow gauge garden layout 2018-onwards.

My current effort is a Large Scale (1:20.3) garden layout based on Rio Grande Southern 3' narrow gauge operations in South West Colorado during its final years when the roads freight services basically ran 'as required" with a daily 'Motor" (railcar) operated passenger/mail/sundries service over its southern section! Track layout is basically a large oval with 3 Depots/Towns on a 2% ruling grade around the perimiter of our garden inked to our garage staging by the "High Line"  on a 4% ruling grade. Operation is RC (radio control) using on board battery, switches/points are operated hand using scaled down models of the vertical switch stands used on the prototype or the more compact/robust ground throws.

Operations is bascialy running an as required freight to or from the garage staging to Jackson City the principal town/depot on the road setting-out (dropping off) or collecting cars at other depots/towns en-route and running the odd Stock Special.  For a back to basics low tech operation cars are/were selected using computer generated 'switch lists" using JMRI "Operations Pro" rather than the traditional coloured dot, one of the advantages of large scale modelling is that its easy to read stock running numbers.

At one stage we ran operating days with the local garden railway group which is now largely defunct, as our younger members no longer have the time, (work/family committments, older members leaving the area, no longer capable or have passed on.

Typically operation required a two man/person train crew one to drive, the second to act as conductor/guard, brakeman/shunter read the switch list, identify the car/set the road/uncouple/couple up and ensure the train is complete before giving the all clear, someone once said that switching/shunting on a model railway takes as long as on the prototype which can be tricky if working to scaled down time.

Currently I am trying to catch up on a backlog of maintenance on a railway thats been in existance for almost 20 years, hopefully I will be able to resume running sessions later this year.

Experiences with exhibition layouts.

Personally I think operating layouts should be built primarily for the enjoyment of the operators and don't really work well as exhibition layouts unless designed specifically for the enjoyment of the visiting public and ease of operation. One of the best I remember was a circular N gauge continuous run layout at a UK exhibition (possibly Berks or Hants) about 40 years ago, layout was simple and operation utterly reliable, small through double track main line station 70s-80s era with a running loop served by a (very large) hidden staging. Continuous procession of trains (mainly Minitrix diesels & coaches), the odd goods/parcels placed in the loop to allow a fast train to overtake. Watched the layout for about half an hour never saw the same train goin around twice.

I was a member of the MRSI Loughrea layout crew from the mid 90s until the early 20s and unsuccessfully attempted to introduce a running sequence on the layout, one of the challenges was that the public quickly lost interest unless something was constantly moving and the small crew that operated the layout seldom had time to rehearse before an exhibition, busily occupied getting the layout ready for an exhibition.

One of the main challenges was trying to keep two locos moving when we attempted to operate Fair Specials and a passenger service due to the limitations of the track layout, you could shunt or run round the passenger or the Fair Special but not both simultaneously! 

During the Inchacore 150 exhibition casual visitors tended to loose interest and walk away, but off duty drivers seemed fascinated when I shunted a Fair Special with my 001, placing the 'laden" wagons against the Brake Van in the loop before departure and commented that I had a 'Mayo Touch" with my shunting!  

Under exhibition conditions operation was often by whoever was available and it was often simpler to run the passenger train (ofthe GN loco & coaches) and run round, than attempt to run a mixed with the added complication of additional shunting.

One of the disadvantages of Loughrea was the sheer length of the layout modelled to scale length without compression. I successfully exhibited a compact industrial layout based on an Iain Rice plan with an operating quarry hopper and "spot the woodland animals" to keep the public interested when nothing was moving.

Normal operation was to use an industrial diesel/steam loco to place wagons under the hopper, then draw the laden wagons to another siding and eventually make up a train ready for collection by a main-line loco. Although nominal train length/loop was set up for 5 wagons longer (10-15 wagon) trains could be handled when collected to a friends layout, the layouts were exhibited in this gusie at a Cork exhibition and Warley in 2005. At Cork one of the challenges was to try and make up trains that would be longer than the runround loops/fiddle yards on each others layouts.

Layout was DC Gaugemaster hand held controller, points controlled with tortoise motors.

 

 

[Metrovik]

Might throw my inexperienced hat into the ring here. Having exhibited at exactly 2 shows with my small shunting layout I have found that the general public seem to more enjoy a brief chat than actually the running of trains themselves. I've also found that minimal activity works well on a small layout. Just my opinion.