Sourcing accurate liveries

[jhb171achill]

In connection with a matter raised in another post, it just occurred to me that a list of where actual examples of paint exist, thus providing a first-hand record of colour shades, might be of use to modellers / historians.

 

The best resource by far is Headhunter's Railway Museum in Enniskillen. The collection of railway coats of arms are (uniquely) almost all mounted on boards painted with original paint. Here can be found actual GNR blue, CDRJC red, CIE dark green, GSR, BCDR and NCC maroon.

 

The solitary example which does not conform is the GSWR crest, which is on GSR maroon instead of GSWR crimson lake.

 

Locos 74 and 800 in Cultra are accurately painted, though the latter should have a "snail" instead of "G. S" for that livery.

 

Obviously, the RPSI's unrepainted Cravens are still in authentic IE livery and at Downpatrick, coaches 1097 and 836 re in accurate GSW crimson lake. Loco 90 is also in accurate pre-1895 GSWR loo livery. These GSW liveries were verified with help from the NRM in York and the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in London.

 

This is not exhaustive.... Whatever else I think of, I will post.

[jhb171achill]

I should have added that many of the loco and coach liveries (but not all) have been highly accurately reproduced on stock in Cultra ad within the care of the ITG, DCDR and RPSI.

[Weshty]

Be still my beating heart!

 

It would make sense to go up so with a full Dulux / Fleetwood swatch under your oxter and a wide spectrum portable white light to indulge in some detailed colour matching....

[Glenderg]

Be still my beating heart!

 

It would make sense to go up so with a full Dulux / Fleetwood swatch under your oxter and a wide spectrum portable white light to indulge in some detailed colour matching....

 

or a pen-knife and a little sealed baggy....

[Glenderg]

"

CIE/IR/IE "orange/tan" is probably going to be as contentious an issue as CIE Green. "

 

True, but it needn't be, as ample photographic evidence exists. As far as green is concerned, CIE used the dark brunswick green shade now to be seen on 800 in Cultra. This is original, as i have compared it with a board painted in the 1940s with the Dublin United Tramways green - which it was a direct copy of. No modern theories, no copies of paint on models, can overwrite this. The example I mention is to be seen as a background to the DUTC coat of arms on the wall of Headhunter's Railway Museum in Enniskillen, who I gave it to, along with a collection of other Irish railway coats of arms, all which bear ORIGINAL paint - for those interested! An original DUTC "Flying Snail" is there too - and the green matches 800. This is the dark green, not what 461 carries now, by the way. (Though to be fair, it is VERY close, and the RPSI as always did a SUPERB job!).

 

This green existed from 1941 (DUTC), then 1945 (CIE) until the mid fifties. The light green which followed is on DCDR's TPO and the Dublin based RPSI Heritage set.

 

So that's the green.

 

 

JHB, The dark green on the outside is the early 1940's etc, as seen on the quiet man?

 

 

Is the inner applegreen (think green with a good dollop of yellow) on the headhunters sign above that shown in the photo below?

 

 

Thirdly, there is mention of OVS Bullied bringing in a shade of Malachite Green (green with a spoon of blue) almost identical to the Southern Railway green in Broad Gauge Carriages in Ireland. Is that still present somewhere?

 

Lastly, which green is this? It doesn't appear to be any of the two at the top? Halp!!! . Richie.

 

[jhb171achill]

Spot on Glenderg. The "quiet man" green can clearly be seen to match that "snail" in Headhunters... They would have been from the same pot. This is the very green that CIE inherited from the DUTC. An actual DUTC crest can be seen above the CIE one in that display. As for Bullied's SR green, that never happened. The DCDR and RPSI green are actually the same - or more or less - and in fact that photo of the CIE train shows slightly light from my recollection.

 

As I mentioned, the earlier darker CIE green may also be seen on 800 "Maedb".

[minister_for_hardship]

Back to the Duke...

 

Seems to be a very wide stripe above the windows and a relatively narrow one beneath, don't think Bachmann or Dapol really nailed that.

 

I know there was some variation in timber stock schemes, saw a pic of a West Cork based coach with no striping at all and what looked like a very dark green. Or maybe that was an optical illusion, the absence of any lighter bands making the overall thing look darker?

 

(interesting in other pics of the movie...the 'smoking' notices on the windows carried ads for Wills Gold Flake!)

[BSGSV]

As JHB says, what a CIE man described as "dark bottle green" with eau-de-nil lining and lettering (as in the quiet man pics above) was used until about 1953/4.

 

The problem with green is that, from then on, shades differed. The same CIE man told the IRRS in the mid-1960's that several (one wonders exactly how many) experimental mid-green shades were tried (presumably on small numbers of coaches each). The Park Royal and other coaches appeared in "brilliant" green, apparently different again. A period of leaving coaches unpainted was tried.

 

Looking at the Tom Ferris colour books, the progression to the mid-1950's is marked on the railcars. Early ones started with the dark green and eau-de-nil. However, there is a photo in one of them of one of the last AEC's 2657 (one of the W&T ones) is a very bright green indeed (especially when compared to the Claytons parked next door). And the roof of that was green too!

 

Looking through those books doesn't neceesarily leave you with a consistent view of green on other coaches. There is a further photo of a steam train at Ballaghadereen, and the two coaches of that appear to be slightly different.

 

Of course, if challenged, the modeller can always say "his/her" green is one of the experimental shades!

Edited October 8, 2013 by BSGSV

[Mayner]

I think its best not to get too hung up on trying to match the exact colours, as shades may vary in different light and atmospheric conditions, colours weather over time locos and rolling stock covered in corrosive fall out from the locomotive steam or diesel, brake dust and muck thrown up from the track.

 

One of the best examples of weathering was the Sulzer locomotives in the Supertrain livery on the Inchacore sound barrier in the 70s & 80s, the tan gradually weathered to pink due to the effects of sun and rust, while locos such as B111 and the twins B113&4 remained well black .

 

Friends in the UK decided to paint a full sized brake van in BR bauxite and were surprised when it first turned out to be a salmon pink and took a year or so exposure to weather to the familiar dark brown.

 

I have several coaches not quite running around in what's supposed to late 50s light green with a single line. I used a Humbrol possibly Southern Multi Stock for the first coach then had aerosols matched by the local paint supplier for more recent stock.

 

I have a single coach in the CIE dark green based on a Tayima Enamel and a few relics running around in what's supposed to GSR/LMS Maroon using a car enamel, maroon has considerably darkened almost to the earlier purple lake over the past 20 years .

 

I suppose the lesson is that if you wait long enough it will eventually come right

[David Holman]

Could not agree more!

Colour is very much in the eye of the viewer and light, weather, weathering etc play an enormous part in how something looks. And that is before quality of film, memories etc kick in.

For me, livery needs to be generally right, but the many shades that paint became over its lifetime mean that unless one is going for a museum standard, it is not worth worrying over too much.

In any case scale colour is not necessarily the same as actual colour. Read the likes of Martyn's Welch and Ian Rathbone (professional model painters) and you soon learn that 'black' is a very difficult issue, but there are many colours in the Halfords range which work extremely well.

[RedRich]

Most if not all models look a different shade in outdoor light as they do when indoors. Color doesn't scale down very well and the smaller the scale one models in, the harder it is. There is a slight difference in the shade of orange on the IE 141-181 models if you put them together. It is even more pronounced with a model of 077 in the IE livery when you put it next to the others. Not trying to take things too off topic, the shade of Inter City Executive on BR models is a color that none of the manufacturers of UK models rarely if ever get right, and Southern green is another one.

 

I remember being on an IRRS tour of Inchicore one September, it could be 11 or 12 years ago. There was a freshly out shopped MK111 EGV that was waiting to be put back into traffic and a MK11 aircon Standard. Both of them were different shades of orange, even though they had been undergoing overhaul at the same time.

 

Rich,

[jhb171achill]

Re the light green bands showing on the coaches in "The Quiet Man", yes, the non-lined variations did exist. West Cork had several, including unlined dark green but with two "snails", and the West Clare had both the darker green, and later the light version, in neither case with any lining. On the C & L narrow gauge, a whitish lining was used, but above window level only.

 

And through all this, bus liveries renamed much more constant!

[minister_for_hardship]

Re the light green bands showing on the coaches in "The Quiet Man", yes, the non-lined variations did exist. West Cork had several, including unlined dark green but with two "snails", and the West Clare had both the darker green, and later the light version, in neither case with any lining. On the C & L narrow gauge, a whitish lining was used, but above window level only.

And through all this, bus liveries renamed much more constant!

 

Not much point in sending stock esp. ng to Inchicore unless heavy overhaul/refurb/rebuilding/scrapping was called for. A simple paint job could be hand applied. Presume places painting stock remote from Inchicore had to make do with what they had on hands giving rise to unofficial variations. The painting of buses would have been much more centralised.

Edited October 9, 2013 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

That's exactly the reason, minister. Limerick and Cork carried out painting jobs, especially Albert quay. In GSR days you'd get one or two panels of a coach resisted and the rest the same! As our good IRM colleague David Holman will know well, the SLNCR's carriages seem never to have seen a paintbrush at all in their last few years... One looked to have a livery of faded bare wood....!

[Weshty]

What would you give to go back in time to a large mid 50's station eh? Once you got over the heady aroma of woodbine, B.O. and boiled cabbage.....

[jhb171achill]

Indeed, Weshty! No iPads, but red 2.6.4Ts in Donegal, and 800 on the express to Cork....

[WRENNEIRE]

Go back the pair of you, your welcome to it

No central Heating, no internet no bleedin fun!!

[jhb171achill]

True, Wrenn; no central heat or fun - but - blue 4.4.0's on the Irish North! And the Sligo Leitrim..... Innocent of diesel locos!

[minister_for_hardship]

What would you give to go back in time to a large mid 50's station eh? Once you got over the heady aroma of woodbine, B.O. and boiled cabbage.....

 

Add hot oil/smoke/dust/paraffin oil to that mix and get Glade to commission an air freshener based on it.

[heirflick]

True, Wrenn; no central heat or fun - but - blue 4.4.0's on the Irish North! And the Sligo Leitrim..... Innocent of diesel locos!

 

:drool:

[jhb171achill]

Something I meant to add with regard to accurate sources for liveries: there is a very old established hardware / paint firm in Belfast called Jamison & Green. They supplied paint to the GNR and the UTA in days of yore.

 

In the 1990s when the RPSI had a policy of accurate liveries for all carriages, and as a result several ex-GN vehicles were turned out in the dark blue and cream livery, J & G still had the specifications for the paint, and made it up accordingly. I believe, from conversations with a man I know who used to work there, that they also still have the spec for UTA green.

 

I quizzed him some years ago on whether he had anything else: he didn't think so. There are examples elsewhere of BCDR and NCC maroons, and it is unlikely that J & G supplied any Dublin based company. The GSWR, certainly, mixed their own!

[minister_for_hardship]

There's a chapter on Irish Railways in Britain's Railway Liveries 1825-1948 by E.F.Carter which has a colour sheet.

[jhb171achill]

Really? Wonder where I'd get a copy of that - would be very interesting, especially if it could pin down the exact shade for the 800 class, which has remained elusive. It was at the time described as "bluey-green", set of by yellow and black lining and blue-backed number and name plates etc etc....

[minister_for_hardship]

I remember seeing it somewhere years ago, I can't remember if it dealt with GSR, seemed to concentrate on pre-Grouping and pre-GSR.

Out of print with donkey's years, NRM would hold a copy I'm sure.

[jhb171achill]

Wish I'd known when I was over there! Must delve in the IRRS, though I doubt it would be there.

 

I have the details of GSR and CIE stuff; earlier would be very interesting, though.