IE Mark III Restaurant Coach Roof Details

[Irishrailwayman]

Would anyone have a decent photograph of MkIII Restaurant coaches in IE livery particularly the roof detail please? I am modifying a Hornby MkIII coach with MIR brass sides and would like to add roof vents as appropriate. I think the UK outline MkIII restaurant coach roofs may differ from those on IE? Thanks in advance.

 

Gerry

[Glenderg]

You're nearly better off using a standard open, and blocking up the galley section windows, as the roof vents on the BR MKIII restaurant are completely different from the IE version. Photos previously posted here by Bosko and Riversuir. I can't locate the thread just now, but this question has been tackled previously.

 

 

 

[Irishrailwayman]

Thanks Glenderg, great pictures, just what I needed. The MIR sides will give me the correct window formation. The Hornby donor I am using is a standard open so I can add the two additional vents.

[burnthebox]

Thanks Glenderg, great pictures, just what I needed. The MIR sides will give me the correct window formation. The Hornby donor I am using is a standard open so I can add the two additional vents.

 

Don't forget to post the pics, before & after,

[Irishrailwayman]

Thanks Glenderg, great pictures, just what I needed. The MIR sides will give me the correct window formation. The Hornby donor I am using is a standard open so I can add the two additional vents.

 

Glenderg, Perchance would you have a photo showing the other side of the roof as I think I see a third vent lurking behind the top two and wonder what shape/size it might be?

 

Many thanks

[Killucan2]

Three vents on roof,can be got from hurst models.

[Irishrailwayman]

Three vents on roof,can be got from hurst models.

 

Thanks for that, now on order. Better than fiddling with plasticard!

[Glenderg]

There are four vents, not three. It would appear that Supertrain/Early MKIII restaurants had either two large and one small or vice versa, as shown here

 

 

 

The later version had four.

 

 

Two small ones and two large.

 

 

 

A bit of 0.25mm styrene to match the profiles shown below, with a roof plan showing their relative location on a MKIII roof. The dotted line indicates a scoring line, so you can bend the front flap of the vent down to match the side profile.

Hope that helps. Richie.

[Noel]

 

Nice pic. Nostalgic looking back at that old CIE livery - it was a grim colour scheme.

[Warbonnet]

Great pics Richie. The Mark IIIs looked fab in Supertrain. Pity it didnt last long before the tippex came out.

[WRENNEIRE]

Have to agree Fran, whereas the Mk3's looked cool, especially with double InterCity logos, the Mk 2's in the same livery looked crap, nothing to look at

[Noel]

Great pics Richie. The Mark IIIs looked fab in Supertrain. Pity it didnt last long before the tippex came out.

 

Interesting. Beauty or not is in the eye of the beholder.

 

When I travelled on early mk3s way back then, I thought the scheme was rather dull and dreary. The later 'tippex' at least gave an ugly colour scheme a visual lift. Thankfully the Mk4s have a nice livery and that awful orange is gone. I'd love to know what the thinking or reasoning behind the switch from the 50s olive green livery to the early 60s black and tan was. Green was the theme colour back then in ROI (e.g. post boxes, phone boxes, buses, trains, etc). Basically they just painted the roofs orange and removed the upper white strip when the Mk2s arrived. Must have been a maintenance headache trying to keep day glow orange roofs clean. Somebody once told me that they changed the buses from green livery so that folks could more easily see them coming from distance in the green country side. Myth or true I have no idea.

 

On the subject of restaurant cars, the catering on the Mk2s and Mk3s was pretty OK compared to the absolute limited rubbish now available on the current Cork Mk4 trains. There was a time the business traveller could travel to Cork and back for a days work, having a decent breakfast on the way down, and an evening meal on the return, instead of a greasy microwaved bap. I understand the enterprise still has decent catering facilities. No wonder the business traveller has abandoned intercity trains.

[Glenderg]

I'd love to know what the thinking or reasoning behind the switch from the 50s olive green livery to the early 60s black and tan was.

 

When CIE took over the amalgamation of the railways, they were left with a veritable jumble sale of wooden bodied stock of all eras, and as has been mentioned here before by such luminaries as JHB Achill, the green livery to that point was hit and miss throughout the country, so there was no standards to the livery. The intention was that a new livery would be sought, so that it would be easy to apply, cheap, and give a new corporate identity to the young CIE. A panel selected noted architects, artists, and interested people and from that Patrick's Scott submission won. His argument was that the white stripe at cantrail would add some uniformity to the coaches in a rake, even if all of odd heritage, and the black would visually break the rhythm of different side pannelling, and the brown/orange to the lower quarters happened to be the colour of his cat, and if you look at his artwork, gold, yellow and red were his palette. It could have been purple, green, or bright red, except that every other prior railway company in Ireland had used every other primary colour at one stage, and that's what was left. A new brush sweeps clean.

 

The mad thing is that when supertrain was converting to tippex livery, Inchicore had enough supply to paint the island tan colour, so they simply added white to it. Red was added to give it that more vibrant colour. Waste not want not and all.

 

As for the supertrain livery not to your liking, I seem to be aware of what you dislike, rather than like, on this and many other threads. Try and stay on the positive side please, and as far as supertrain goes, I present evidence to suggest it was quite the looker, whilst still remaining on topic.

 

 

R.

[islandbridgejct]

That's interesting about Patrick Scott's involvement. I had been wondering if the CIE engineers went to LaGrange when they were ordering the first GM diesels, and simply borrowed the colour scheme from the Illinois Central:

 

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=167571

 

 

Is the resemblance too close to be a coincidence?

 

Alan

[Warbonnet]

That's interesting about Patrick Scott's involvement. I had been wondering if the CIE engineers went to LaGrange when they were ordering the first GM diesels, and simply borrowed the colour scheme from the Illinois Central:

 

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=167571

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15761[/ATTACH]

 

Is the resemblance too close to be a coincidence?

 

Alan

 

Quite possibly. Great Northern wasnt a million miles away either, except it uses dark green rather than black

 

[Glenderg]

More than likely it inspired their decision. Bring a bit of "modren 'merica" to ireland and all that.

[Irishrailwayman]

Many thanks Glenderg, this has been most helpful. I have the donor carriages/Westy transfers all lined up to do a rake of Supertrain MKIIIs including the Supertrain Diner once I finish with the IE restaurant coach and a few other jobs so your new pictures will be useful.

[Irishrailwayman]

When CIE took over the amalgamation of the railways, they were left with a veritable jumble sale of wooden bodied stock of all eras, and as has been mentioned here before by such luminaries as JHB Achill, the green livery to that point was hit and miss throughout the country, so there was no standards to the livery. The intention was that a new livery would be sought, so that it would be easy to apply, cheap, and give a new corporate identity to the young CIE. A panel selected noted architects, artists, and interested people and from that Patrick's Scott submission won. His argument was that the white stripe at cantrail would add some uniformity to the coaches in a rake, even if all of odd heritage, and the black would visually break the rhythm of different side pannelling, and the brown/orange to the lower quarters happened to be the colour of his cat, and if you look at his artwork, gold, yellow and red were his palette. It could have been purple, green, or bright red, except that every other prior railway company in Ireland had used every other primary colour at one stage, and that's what was left. A new brush sweeps clean.

 

The mad thing is that when supertrain was converting to tippex livery, Inchicore had enough supply to paint the island tan colour, so they simply added white to it. Red was added to give it that more vibrant colour. Waste not want not and all.

 

As for the supertrain livery not to your liking, I seem to be aware of what you dislike, rather than like, on this and many other threads. Try and stay on the positive side please, and as far as supertrain goes, I present evidence to suggest it was quite the looker, whilst still remaining on topic.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15755[/ATTACH]

 

R.

 

Patrick Scott died just this year see: http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2942-Patrick-Scott-RIP?highlight=patrick+scott

[Irishrailwayman]

Many thanks Glenderg, this has been most helpful. I have the donor carriages/Westy transfers all lined up to do a rake of Supertrain MKIIIs including the Supertrain Diner once I finish with the IE restaurant coach and a few other jobs so your new pictures will be useful.

 

I have finally completed my rescue project on a failed application of MIR brass sides to a Lima carriage. I have re-attached the sides to a Hornby MK3. The attached photies show the result with the addition of lights and updated SSM window and other transfers. Included also are two shots of a MK3 Lima repaint with SSM City Gold transfers all posing happily on Ballybeg in the sunshine...

 

[Weshty]

Sweeeeeet!! And you've decalled all the window stickers as well. Your patience knows no bounds. Looks loverly.

[jhb171achill]

I remember seeing the "tippex" for the first time on the "Enterprise"; the "A" class at the front plus all of the coaches were in the supertrain version - except for two carriages with the stripes. I thought it looked cheap; the expectation was that the newly formed Irish rail / IE would have a brand new livery of their own, but this was shot down as there was no money to repaint everything. However, getting used to it, I must say that when newly painted, a "tippex" locomotive looked great.

 

What did look absolutely ghastly was the bright blue and red paintwork on station buildings at that time.....

[Irishrailwayman]

Sweeeeeet!! And you've decalled all the window stickers as well. Your patience knows no bounds. Looks loverly.

 

Thanks Weshty, where would we be without your transfers!

[craven1508]

nice work there, city gold was a lovely mark iii

[RedRich]

The restaurant looks fantastic. So much better with the correct window arrangement and roof details.

 

Rich,

[Irishrailwayman]

Sweeeeeet!! And you've decalled all the window stickers as well. Your patience knows no bounds. Looks loverly.

 

Also, the silver window surrounds were supplied by you!