Question re CIE Coaching Stock ( Mk2A etc)

[StevieB]

When IR rebuilt the ex BR coaches they acquired from Vic Berry, were they all laid out as open coaches? I ask because two of them were mk2a FK's and I wondered how they dealt with the middle door on the corridor side. In order to fit it in, the adjacent windows were in a slightly different position to all the others. Maybe they just blocked it up!

 

Stephen

[murphaph]

Sorry to revive this old but fascinating discussion but it's better to keep all this information together.

Does anyone know if and when the mk2as with the silver window frames lost those silver frames under black paint?

The nice Bachmann mk2a models show silver window frames but with IE decals. Did such a combination ever actually exist in reality?

[hexagon789]

3 hours ago, murphaph said:

Sorry to revive this old but fascinating discussion but it's better to keep all this information together.

Does anyone know if and when the mk2as with the silver window frames lost those silver frames under black paint?

The nice Bachmann mk2a models show silver window frames but with IE decals. Did such a combination ever actually exist in reality?

I can find this photo without such window frames taken in 2002, so towards the end of the fleet's life:

So if they had silver frames, they were painted out by the end.

I have the relevant journals which detail the introduction of the fleet to traffic, bear with me a few minutes and I'll see if window frames get a mention.

[murphaph]

Thanks a lot for checking Ben!

There are photos from 1999 (I think kindly linked above in this very thread) of the mk2As and they had already been painted black by then as well.

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ie/car/IE/pix.html

 

That's a mk2b or c in your pic though, right? (I'm no expert but from what I know only from the b series on did they get those classic wraparound doors, the mk2 and mk2as still having "normal" doors)

Edited October 15, 2020 by murphaph

[hexagon789]

7 hours ago, murphaph said:

Thanks a lot for checking Ben!

There are photos from 1999 (I think kindly linked above in this very thread) of the mk2As and they had already been painted black by then as well.

We'll I've been through the Journals and while they describe the livery, no mention is made of the window frames sadly.

7 hours ago, murphaph said:

That's a mk2b or c in your pic though, right? (I'm no expert but from what I know only from the b series on did they get those classic wraparound doors, the mk2 and mk2as still having "normal" doors)

It's an ex-Mk2c Open First

The original Mk2s (sometimes known as Mk2Z) were vacuum braked and dual heated, some later gained air brakes. These had centre doors.

The Mk2A were the first strictly air-braked ones though some were later converted to vacuum for local requirements, again centre doors.

Mk2B lost the centre doors and had as you rightly say, wide wrapround end doors.

Mk2C were to get air-con so we're slightly longer and internally had lowered ceilings and ducts for the air-con

Mk2D were the first air-con and have deeper door droplights than the other air-cons

Mk2E had diagonally opposite toilets in second class

Mk2F the same plus improved ait-con system with only one fan unit on non-brake vehicles.

 

The Irish Mk2 AC stock while labelled "D" is really the Mk2E design but with the superior Mk2F air-con system!

Confused yet? ;)

[murphaph]

Thanks for going to such lengths Ben. I have a gut feeling the silver window frames disappeared with the change to IE livery. I haven't found any pictures with silver window frames + IE logos. It would be nice to find even one picture disproving this gut feeling. 

 

[hexagon789]

7 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Thanks for going to such lengths Ben. I have a gut feeling the silver window frames disappeared with the change to IE livery. I haven't found any pictures with silver window frames + IE logos. It would be nice to find even one picture disproving this gut feeling. 

 

I suddenly had an idea - YouTube.

John Hewitt's series of seven 1993/4 IR videos and sure enough, there's a Mk2 set in this one at 2:17. Looks like silver frames on the windows though the light is rather poor:

I'll let you see if you agree

[murphaph]

So I think those frames are all still silver and the coaches are still in IR livery. The IE 201 shows this video is from 94 or later. I really strongly suspect now that with the livery change to IE these coaches had their window frames painted black.

 

[hexagon789]

3 minutes ago, murphaph said:

So I think those frames are all still silver and the coaches are still in IR livery. The IE 201 shows this video is from 94 or later. I really strongly suspect now that with the livery change to IE these coaches had their window frames painted black.

 

That's my thinking as well, I think the silver frames are a nice touch. They looked well on the 2D stock.

[popeye]

On 15/10/2020 at 10:38 PM, hexagon789 said:

The Irish Mk2 AC stock while labelled "D" is really the Mk2E design but with the superior Mk2F air-con system!

Confused yet?

I don't know why it is called MK2 D when it is MK2 E, that's like calling a Jumbo jet a 707.

So if you want to respray some coaches into Supertrain livery MK2 D you need MK2 E coaches correct?

[murphaph]

 

I think 2f is actually closer but externally I'm not sure if there was much of a difference.

 

[hexagon789]

15 minutes ago, murphaph said:

 

I think 2f is actually closer but externally I'm not sure if there was much of a difference.

 

Mostly related to the air-con, B4 bogies (hydraulic dampers vs friction dampers), door droplights and certain internal features.

 

1 hour ago, popeye said:

I don't know why it is called MK2 D when it is MK2 E, that's like calling a Jumbo jet a 707.

So if you want to respray some coaches into Supertrain livery MK2 D you need MK2 E coaches correct?

Presumably 2D because that's what existed when CIÉ placed the order. Literature of the time says based on the 2D design so that's the official line even if the reality is different.

Broadly speaking above the solebar they are more like a 2E, below like a 2F as the Irish 2D share air-con systems with the British 2F and the gubbins for that is different from the 2E.

There are a few purely Irish differences as well, need to find a book to remind myself of specifics.

Finally, you can only model two types by using the 2E as a based - Super-Standard (First) and Standard. Nothing is remotely close to the unique Gen Van, Kitchen Buffet Standard or Composites.

[popeye]

That's good information, Thanks, it's confusing.

[Dempsey]

So if you wanted to repaint mk2 the mk2e and f are the best? 

[hexagon789]

56 minutes ago, popeye said:

That's good information, Thanks, it's confusing.

Well at least Irish Rail only had one variant of air-con Mk2!

 

25 minutes ago, Dempsey said:

So if you wanted to repaint mk2 the mk2e and f are the best? 

I'd say go 2F because the underframe equipment is the closest. I actually spent some time comparing BR Mk2D, E and F and Irish examples and the more I noticed that really there are elements of all 3 variants in the Irish ones as well as some items which seem unique to the Irish ones.

Really one should describe the Irish Mk2 AC stock as a hybrid Mk2DEF!

 

[Dempsey]

What would have been a typical rake? 

[hexagon789]

6 minutes ago, Dempsey said:

What would have been a typical rake? 

Need a "when" for that.

The types of vehicles and seating arrangements were altered over the course of their life quite considerably.

The first change came after only 4 months in traffic for instance.

[Dempsey]

During the IE era of branding? 

Would it have been similar to the make up of a mk3 rake? 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Dempsey

[Dhu Varren]

Aside from the difference in the underfloor A/C equipment between Mk 2D and Mk 2F, the Standard class/2nd class BR 2D has the toilets positioned on the same side, whereas the Standard class/2nd class 2E/F have the toilets positioned on opposite corners. Super Standard class/1st class 2D/E/F all have the toilets positioned on the same side. The Irish Standard class '2D' has the toilets positioned on opposite corners. 

[hexagon789]

28 minutes ago, Dempsey said:

During the IE era of branding? 

Would it have been similar to the make up of a mk3 rake? 

No, after the Mk3s were introduced the Mk2D fleet was downgraded and by the IÉ era the rakes were very mixed. The only one real certainty is the Gen Van would be the first or last coach!

There does seem to be a vague pattern that the Buffet Standard would often be behind or within two coaches of the gen van but this was not at all a hard and fast rule, I've seen plenty of rakes when the buffet is over half way through the set from the Gen Van and even one where it was the last coach.

You have to go back to the IR era for even a vague sort of general formation and that would even then only apply to Belfast and Sligo sets which still had Super Standard accommodation and so were formed Gen Van-First (Belfast)/Compo (Sligo)-Buffet-Standards* 

*which could include former composites or Super Standards downgraded.

Into the 2000s with the advent of the De Dietrichs on Belfasts and end of Super Standard accommodation on Sligos all Mk2D sets were Standard only though a few composites remained such internally until at least 2006.

By the time of withdrawal afaik everything was converted to Standard Class:

You had the original standards seating 64

The former composites seating 54

The former super-standards seating 62

All 2+2 standard class seating.

 

23 minutes ago, Dhu Varren said:

Aside from the difference in the underfloor A/C equipment between Mk 2D and Mk 2F, the Standard class/2nd class BR 2D has the toilets positioned on the same side, whereas the Standard class/2nd class 2E/F have the toilets positioned on opposite corners. Super Standard class/1st class 2D/E/F all have the toilets positioned on the same side. The Irish Standard class '2D' has the toilets positioned on opposite corners. 

Indeed, BR went a bit full circle there. Mk1 and the first Mk2s seated 64 in standard class opens, by the Mk2b the removal of the centre vestibule and positioning of the toilets at opposite ends meant seating capacity was reduced by 2 as the shape of the toilet required an offset passage from vestibule to passenger saloon so the seating was only 2+1 at the outer ends.

This was carried over into the BR Mk2D hence these only seated 62 in Standard Class opens, the Mk2E design changed this.

The toilets were placed at diagonally opposite corners, reduced in size and made square and this enabled a return to 64 seats in the Mk2E and F standards.

Edited January 17, 2021 by hexagon789

[hexagon789]

After spending some more time comparing the types, I've noticed another reason to use a 2F as an approximate for an Irish 2D - they share the same B4 bogies variant with friction rather than hydraulic dampers.

I must admit that surprised me given all British B4s had hydraulic dampers up to the Mk2E coaches and the Irish 2D slot between the British 2D and 2E age-wise but there you go, you learn something new every day as they say!

 

19 hours ago, Dempsey said:

During the IE era of branding? 

Would it have been similar to the make up of a mk3 rake? 

I should also have added I can offer some prototype formations if you give a rough year/years and route, I have a list of some 2D set makeups for the IÉ era.

[Dempsey]

1 hour ago, hexagon789 said:

After spending some more time comparing the types, I've noticed another reason to use a 2F as an approximate for an Irish 2D - they share the same B4 bogies variant with friction rather than hydraulic dampers.

I must admit that surprised me given all British B4s had hydraulic dampers up to the Mk2E coaches and the Irish 2D slot between the British 2D and 2E age-wise but there you go, you learn something new every day as they say!

 

I should also have added I can offer some prototype formations if you give a rough year/years and route, I have a list of some 2D set makeups for the IÉ era.

That would be great information as i aim to be model early 90's along the Dublin Belfast route. My view would be to model around about when the 201s started to come online. 

My knowledge is limited i admit

[hexagon789]

On 18/1/2021 at 5:33 PM, Dempsey said:

That would be great information as i aim to be model early 90's along the Dublin Belfast route. My view would be to model around about when the 201s started to come online. 

My knowledge is limited i admit

That would be 1995 then for when the 201s appeared but if anything Belfast was about the last mainline they appeared on - IR seemed to want to get the Hueston links over to 201s first before they put any 201s on the Belfasts.

While nearly all the Hueston InterCity links are booked 201 in 1995 for example, there are no 201s booked from Connolly.

I can help with your basic IR Belfast Mk2D set though, bear in mind Northern Ireland Railways provided most of the services - two diagrams, IR only provided one set until the De-Dietrichs took over and a shared stock pool was created.

Typically the sets for Belfast would be: 

Gen Van+First*+Kitchen Buffet Standard+ between 5-7 Stds**

Notes - sometimes only 4 standards but 7 was usual particularly on busy days

* this would be 5106 as this was the last full First, the other being converted to Standards from 1985 onwards. If it was unavailable one if the Sligo dedicated Composites would cover.

**-the Standards could include the Composites converted to 54-seat Standards, but I've yet to see an ex-First appear in a set.

 

Hope that helps in some way, any further questions just ask! ;)

[Dempsey]

More then helpful thank you. Much appreciated. 

[RedRich]

MK11 F had bigger roof access hatches then the rest of the MK11 series.

Rich,

[BosKonay]

and that's before even talking about the Mk2b or c

[hexagon789]

3 hours ago, RedRich said:

MK11 F had bigger roof access hatches then the rest of the MK11 series.

Rich,

I'd guess because of the different air-con system but I've not checked if Irish 2Ds share the larger roof hatches.

 

3 hours ago, BosKonay said:

and that's before even talking about the Mk2b or c

Or A or Z, or the Pullmans etc etc

 

[Wexford70]

Did all of the second hand BR MK2s end up with black rooves when carrying the Irish Rail logo? I see in IRM models two have orange rooves.