Chevron Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I will be getting a bit of track in a few weeks so am planning on a project to make us of some of it. As the title says im going to attempt to make a hump yard. have a mdf base of 36 inchs by 12 inchs. im sure this will be long and wide enough to make one. looking for any hints or tips on this as i only found out about such a thing yesterday. have to figure out the layout and the hump angle and how to bend track for the hump. Im thinking a layout like so What do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 BosKonay Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Nice idea, and not one I think I've ever seen modeled! How will you handle braking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Chevron Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 Thats why im planning weeks ahead. will take a few cardboard prototypes to work it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Junctionmad Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 im perplexed in how you will handle uncoupling with Tension lock , as you cant get delayed uncoupling and then how will you break the vans. I suppose you could fashion a rail retarder rather like modern US practice, but in the UK hump yards , a lot was done by manual braking. It has been suggested in H0 that air jets could be used to retard the wagons, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Chevron Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 A few possible plan options. As for breaking i have a few ideas. could have a lever that when pulled it raises bristles up between the track sleepers to slow down the wagon. could have a long thin strip of balsa running the lenght of the track straights attached to a leaver to raise and lower it to slow down the wagons. Also have to decide if it will be an actual hump, or the hump line will be on a slope and the rest level or have everything behind the hump on a gentle slope down. Still a lot of thinking and deciding to do. All ideas help hints and tips welcome. So all aboard and throw your spanners in the works to help me along Cheers Danny AKA Chevron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Chevron Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 the uncoupling should be easy using a basic uncoupler between the rails if the rail is on a slope rather than an actual camels hump. if not a simple lever system to push up a pad to uncouple should do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 irishthump Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 im perplexed in how you will handle uncoupling with Tension lock , as you cant get delayed uncoupling and then how will you break the vans. I suppose you could fashion a rail retarder rather like modern US practice, but in the UK hump yards , a lot was done by manual braking. It has been suggested in H0 that air jets could be used to retard the wagons, You could try magnets. The wheels and axles on most British RTR stock are attracted to magnets. I've notice this myself when using Kadee uncoupling magnets, in some cases the wagon or van would stop dead right over the magnet! It would take a bit of experimentation with the size/power of the magnets and their positioning but it would be possible to get the required effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Chevron Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 You could try magnets. The wheels and axles on most British RTR stock are attracted to magnets. I've notice this myself when using Kadee uncoupling magnets, in some cases the wagon or van would stop dead right over the magnet! It would take a bit of experimentation with the size/power of the magnets and their positioning but it would be possible to get the required effect. This is a good idea as i do plan to change all wheels on wagons to metal ones. less manual work and more automation.. i really like this idea this would work like a pneumatic retarder system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Chevron Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 im perplexed in how you will handle uncoupling with Tension lock , as you cant get delayed uncoupling and then how will you break the vans. I suppose you could fashion a rail retarder rather like modern US practice, but in the UK hump yards , a lot was done by manual braking. It has been suggested in H0 that air jets could be used to retard the wagons, i have no way no how and no knowledge of doing an air jet system.. although that would be awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 irishthump Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 This is a good idea as i do plan to change all wheels on wagons to metal ones.less manual work and more automation.. i really like this idea this would work like a pneumatic retarder system. Glad you like the idea, I actually think it would work well. Small neodymium magnets could be placed just inside the rails. It's the magnetic pull on the axles and not the wheels that has the most effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 DiveController Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I will be getting a bit of track in a few weeks so am planning on a project to make us of some of it. As the title says im going to attempt to make a hump yard. have a mdf base of 36 inchs by 12 inchs. im sure this will be long and wide enough to make one. looking for any hints or tips on this as i only found out about such a thing yesterday. have to figure out the layout and the hump angle and how to bend track for the hump. Im thinking a layout like so What do you guys think? Danny, could you enlighten the rest of us what defines a hump yard? I presume there is some topographical change in the terrain over the yard or at the entrance. Where were they used? any examples in Ireland? I presume they did not have a specific purpose other than to exist in an area with this type of topography? How did the yard safeguard against runaways? Thanks, Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Garfield Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Danny, could you enlighten the rest of us what defines a hump yard? I presume there is some topographical change in the terrain over the yard or at the entrance. Where were they used? any examples in Ireland? I presume they did not have a specific purpose other than to exist in an area with this type of topography? How did the yard safeguard against runaways? Thanks, Kevin Hump yards are used to assemble freight trains with wagons/cars from different sources. A shunter will push the wagon over the hump, signalman will select the appropriate track for it, and a pneumatic retarder fitted between the rails will slow it down just enough so that it rolls up to the rest of the wagons and buffers-up (or couples if automatic couplers are used). The retarder was operated by a staff member in a tower overlooking the yard, although I think modern ones are automated. There were none in Ireland but the UK had some, although I'm not sure if any are still operational there. There's quite a few in the US... here's a video of one in operation: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Chevron Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 Hump yards are used to assemble freight trains with wagons/cars from different sources. A shunter will push the wagon over the hump, signalman will select the appropriate track for it, and a pneumatic retarder fitted between the rails will slow it down just enough so that it rolls up to the rest of the wagons and buffers-up (or couples if automatic couplers are used). The retarder was operated by a staff member in a tower overlooking the yard, although I think modern ones are automated. There were none in Ireland but the UK had some, although I'm not sure if any are still operational there. There's quite a few in the US... here's a video of one in operation: Thanks garfield that explains it better than o could .. as i i only found out about over the last day or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Garfield Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Thanks garfield that explains it better than o could .. as i i only found out about over the last day or so. You're welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Junctionmad Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 can tension lock couplings work in a hump situation. I cant see how it could , since you dont have delayed uncoupling like kadee etc as for retarders , i suspect magnets will work far to well !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Chevron Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) can tension lock couplings work in a hump situation. I cant see how it could , since you dont have delayed uncoupling like kadee etc as for retarders , i suspect magnets will work far to well !!! i will have to test but .. the standard decoupler should work......i just use standard hornby coupling system..( im cheap ) lol i don't think kadee system is required.. might make it easier but i believe the standard hornby spring loaded decoupler will work Edited April 1, 2015 by Chevron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Junctionmad Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 can tension lock couplings work in a hump situation. I cant see how it could , since you dont have delayed uncoupling like kadee etc as for retarders , i suspect magnets will work far to well !!! Normally for tension locks to uncouple there has to no pressure on the couplings and then the loco draws forward. If the wagon is already under the force of gravity, then the tension locks hooks will not pop up. If the wagon isn't under the force of gravity then it will uncouple but not roll away. This is a " gedanken " but hmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Junctionmad Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Hump yards are used to assemble freight trains with wagons/cars from different sources. A shunter will push the wagon over the hump, signalman will select the appropriate track for it, and a pneumatic retarder fitted between the rails will slow it down just enough so that it rolls up to the rest of the wagons and buffers-up (or couples if automatic couplers are used). The retarder was operated by a staff member in a tower overlooking the yard, although I think modern ones are automated. There were none in Ireland but the UK had some, although I'm not sure if any are still operational there. There's quite a few in the US... here's a video of one in operation: No hump yards remain in the uk. ( simply wagon load doesn't exist anymore ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Chevron Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 Normally for tension locks to uncouple there has to no pressure on the couplings and then the loco draws forward. If the wagon is already under the force of gravity, then the tension locks hooks will not pop up. If the wagon isn't under the force of gravity then it will uncouple but not roll away. This is a " gedanken " but hmmmm but if the coupling happens at the hump of a hill there should be 2 options. one - the hooks should uncouple at the hump if going with a camel hump system. two - the hooks should uncouple over the uncoupler - if on a slightly raised platform and then roll on a higher gradient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Junctionmad Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 but if the coupling happens at the hump of a hill there should be 2 options. one - the hooks should uncouple at the hump if going with a camel hump system. two - the hooks should uncouple over the uncoupler - if on a slightly raised platform and then roll on a higher gradient it can be made work in a kind of toy train method, ( from my childhood train set) , where you reverse back oner the uncoupler and as it uncouples , stop the train dead, the wagon then rolls way under its own inertia. its very unprototypoical and hard to achieve. Thats the advantage of delayed uncoupling systems be interesting to see how it works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Garfield Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 it can be made work in a kind of toy train method, ( from my childhood train set) , where you reverse back oner the uncoupler and as it uncouples , stop the train dead, the wagon then rolls way under its own inertia. its very unprototypoical and hard to achieve. Thats the advantage of delayed uncoupling systems His layout, his rules at the end of the day, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 richrua Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 is that one of those gravity fed shunting yards common in the US ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 irishthump Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 This guys has an interesting way to slow the cars..... [video=youtube;-YY55xmNXfQ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Junctionmad Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 His layout, his rules at the end of the day, though. absolutely not, strict adherence to scale, prototype operation is a must for the serious railway modeller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mayner Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Model Hump Yard seems to work reliably Gravity shunting where grades were used to assist sorting wagons was quite common in loose coupled days. There is footage of gravity shunting at Sligo Quay in Markle Associates Irish Railway Archive series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRYOlkETWkw Watched OBB sorting containers wagons and Ammonia tank wagons by gravity in Krems about to years ago. A train from the local industries was held on a headshunt outside of the station and wagons released to run down the grade into the yard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Junctionmad Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 jeepers, those wagons must be doing a scale 100mph. I'm not sending me parcels with em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 irishthump Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 jeepers, those wagons must be doing a scale 100mph. I'm not sending me parcels with em. Ha! Those wagons better have sprung buffers or they'll be nothing left of them after a while! Seriously though, that's impressive. Something to slow the wagons down would make it perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 DiveController Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Ok, Danny, Looking forward to some photos of the progress as you go. Some good points regarding the scale speeds and retarding systems. Good luck! don't forget to post:tumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Chevron Posted April 6, 2015 Author Share Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) So i think its safe to assume that every one agrees the biggest issue is with slowing the wagons down without them smashing into each other. And that smash would get harder after each wagon added to a track due to momentum and less stopping distance so any retarder system will have to increase its breaking system as another wagon is added so a static system wont work. that leave some kind of dynamic system or a system that slides forward toward the hump as a wagon is added. AND each wagon will have different momentum speeds due to weight and free wheeling ability. Anything else im missing here? Edited April 6, 2015 by Chevron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 DiveController Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 And that smash would get harder after each wagon added to a track due to momentum and less stopping distance so any retarder system will have to increase its breaking system as another wagon is added so a static system wont work. I think that is exactly the problem. The potential energy from the hump is fixed but the wagon rolling distance and speed is variable based on intrinsic rolling quality and the weight which creates greater momentum. I think that is why the prototypical hump yard uses SEVERAL radar detectors for wagon speed to allow differential slowing at several points. I'm not sure what's available in Dcc detection systems, there is track occupancy but not sure if there us a mini-doppler. Maybe combined with a rheostat to the retarder? Just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Noel Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 jeepers, those wagons must be doing a scale 100mph. I'm not sending me parcels with em. +1 A little on the fast side for my taste too. Not very realistic at all. If you watch old B&W video clips of UK yards the speeds were quite low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Chevron Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 I'm not sure what's available in Dcc detection systems, This will be a DC system. will be a long time before i go DCC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 DiveController Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 This will be a DC system. will be a long time before i go DCC. I did not mean to imply that you had to be on DCC. I guess I misspoke. I was just suggesting some detection system linked to whatever retarder assuming it was electromechanical in some way (electromagnet etc.) and not some hairs on a stick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Question
Chevron
I will be getting a bit of track in a few weeks so am planning on a project to make us of some of it.
As the title says im going to attempt to make a hump yard.
have a mdf base of 36 inchs by 12 inchs.
im sure this will be long and wide enough to make one.
looking for any hints or tips on this as i only found out about such a thing yesterday.
have to figure out the layout and the hump angle and how to bend track for the hump.
Im thinking a layout like so
What do you guys think?
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