Travelling Post Office

[Noel]

I made a slight mod by blanking off the mechanical gear on the kit as per the later CIE bogie TPOs. Enjoyed seen the pair of old coaches (ie TPO+GSV) at the head of a rake of mk2d Aircon coaches on the Galway-Dublin train before the tram invasion. The mk2 set had their own EGV, but the TPO needed a GSV to accompany it.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Noel
Lexdysia

[DiveController]

On 2/5/2020 at 6:18 PM, jhb171achill said:

.... and in a spirit of helpfulness:

1. Dunno where IFM got red and white. They were never that, in any livery. They were as shown in the pics.

2. The upper pic shows a newly painted one - post office green with lettering in a pale creamy-greenish colour. The lower pic shows the same thing, badly faded as they usually were.

I wanted to post a pic of the TPO in the earlier condition with some of the mechanical mechanical equipment (without the netting) and the doors still in place. It occurred to me that even though this must be repainted in to 'original' condition, the P&T logo on 2978 at the RPSI is faded so badly to 'orange' that it might be mistaken for a faded red?

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by DiveController

[flange lubricator]

Here is a pic of one  with nets from the O'Dea collection

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305576

[DiveController]

1 hour ago, flange lubricator said:

Here is a pic of one  with nets from the O'Dea collection

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305576

That's actually a great shot @flange lubricator a second before pickup with the camera panning with the train motion. Its a good view of the netting extended and the receiving apparatus on the ground albeit it doesn't look like a bag was dropped. Interestingly, all the P&T backgrounds are in a lighter color than the coach also seen in this O' Dea shot from 1962 when 2974 would have been in a green livery. I'm not 100% convince that P&T logo wasn't orange on an eau de nil background. One more thing was the number of skylights on the roof presumably due to the lack of windows on one side of the TPO

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305952

Edited February 9, 2020 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

44 minutes ago, DiveController said:

I wanted to post a pic of the TPO in the earlier condition with some of the mechanical mechanical equipment (without the netting) and the doors still in place. It occurred to me that even though this must be repainted in to 'original' condition, the P&T logo on 2978 at the RPSI is faded so badly to 'orange' that it might be mistaken for a faded red?

 

Good point, DiveController.... fading does some strange things!

I’ve watched the way some paints have faded over the years, out of interest. Some greens, for example, fade to a yellowy colour, while some others - despite being the same green when fresh, fade to a bluish-grey shade.

That yoke at Downpatrick has Indeed faded to a form that might reasonably be deduced to be something like red (or orange?) and cream, but I would have to say that it’s (albeit misleadingly!) originally a lightish green and a “p & t” browny-Green colour.

[flange lubricator]

this is as I would remember them

[jhb171achill]

Yes, me too - badly faded green!

I strongly suspect they never repainted those boards after original painting!

Edited February 9, 2020 by jhb171achill

[BSGSV]

I suspect none of the CIE bogie TPO's were green. The O'Dea photos look like they are still in the original silver, and would have gone to black/tan/white next, while the 1968 conversions would have been painted in that from the start.

[DiveController]

That's interesting that you said that @BSGSV as I considered the O' Dea photos might be in silver livery but looked dull relative to lineside silver signal posts etc. I didn't notice an eau-de-nil stripe though and if they were the P&T signage is even lighter than the vans. I would be good if anyone could clarify that TPO liveries at that time.

When 2977 was delivered to NI it came in green as the property of An Post but quite possible that livery was a promotional livery added only after the BnT era 

Edited February 9, 2020 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

8 hours ago, BSGSV said:

I suspect none of the CIE bogie TPO's were green. The O'Dea photos look like they are still in the original silver, and would have gone to black/tan/white next, while the 1968 conversions would have been painted in that from the start.

 

1 hour ago, DiveController said:

That's interesting that you said that @BSGSV as I considered the O' Dea photos might be in silver livery but looked dull relative to lineside silver signal posts etc. I didn't notice an eau-de-nil stripe though and if they were the P&T signage is even lighter than the vans. I would be good if anyone could clarify that TPO liveries at that time.

When 2977 was delivered to NI it came in green as the property of An Post but quite possible that livery was a promotional livery added only after the BnT era 

I can’t speak for numbers but some of these did become green, obviously not for long once BnT came in.

TPOs certainly didn’t get the TLC given to passenger-carrying vehicles. Either the DCDR or the An Post / RPSI one (can’t remember which, maybe both) showed green paint under the black’n’tan.

19 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

Here is a pic of one  with nets from the O'Dea collection

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305576

That one’s green, anyway.

[DiveController]

That's right , they were obviously green at some point. Those ones would normally have had an EDN stripe. Were there any that didn't? In all probability I'm thinking this one probably is in silver, albeit probably in less than pristine condition, not as bright as the line side silver signal post but definitely no stripe, Galway Mail, Mullingar 1962

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305952

We know two 4w sorting vans were in silver but sure and I'm wondering id the bogie TPOs were the same for a period

Edited February 10, 2020 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

On 2/8/2020 at 11:08 PM, flange lubricator said:

Here is a pic of one  with nets from the O'Dea collection

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305576

 

Basically, any TPO built before 1955 was green from the outset, BnT after 1963. Anything built 1955-57 was turned out in silver (roof / ends / bogies included; dark colour is dirt), but repainted green 1958-62, BnT after 1963.

This applies to 4 or 6 wheeled, or bogies equally.

Since TPOs tended not to be a bother to painters too often, the very odd vehicle skipped the green and went from unpainted, through nondescript dirt, to BnT without seeing green.

Jimmy O’Dea’s stuff shows filthy-silver alongside green in many types of passenger stock in the 1955-62 period.

[Mayner]

The "Silver" Laminate panels were unpainted aluminium rather than stainless steel and did'nt stand a chance against the Irish weather, diesel fumes, coal smoke and track dirt/brake dust and tarnished pretty quickly. I used Tayima AS12 "Bare Metal Silver" to represent a new ex-works aluminium coach but I would not attempt to  weather one.

 

 

 

[DiveController]

So what do you think of this O Dea Picture of 2974, last of the 'silver' (if they were introduced in 1958 in silver) in 1962? @jhb171achill @Mayner

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305952

(Struggling find anything in color from that era anywhere on the net) 

Another 1959, definitely no EDN stripe

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304426

Edited February 10, 2020 by DiveController

[DiveController]

 

Where the work happened in 2977...

Roof lights replaced by fluorescent lighting

 

[jhb171achill]

6 hours ago, DiveController said:

So what do you think of this O Dea Picture of 2974, last of the 'silver' (if they were introduced in 1958 in silver) in 1962? @jhb171achill @Mayner

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305952

(Struggling find anything in color from that era anywhere on the net) 

Another 1959, definitely no EDN stripe

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304426

Those 2 pics - both very definitely “silver”.

A point for modellers - anything at all in “silver” - be it a coach, Tom van or A or C class loco - the roofs were too. In photos they often look darker (and they were!), but this is pure dirt, not grey or black paint.

A bit like the domes on GNR (blue) and CDR locos - often taken as black, but actually blue / red!

”Silver” CIE locos and rolling stick also had chassis the same - not a paintbrush went near them! Ghastly appearance....though one at least in my layout is going to have to happen at some stage......

[BSGSV]

None of the photos above shows a CIE built TPO in green in CIE service. Has anyone any evidence that such existed?

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, BSGSV said:

None of the photos above shows a CIE built TPO in green in CIE service. Has anyone any evidence that such existed?

Yes.

In one of O’Dea’s pics above, one is green, the other silver. I've seen pics elsewhere but can’t put me finger to them right now - however, in terms of evidence, more importantly, of the two preserved ones at least one showed green paint under the BnT.

As mentioned, beasts like these often had long waits to meet paintbrushes, so as can be seen, a disproportionate number skipped the ”green era”, going straight from filth (“silver”!!) to black’n’tan.

Well into BnT days, I saw one so dirty that you could barely see the white line above window level.....

[BSGSV]

5 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

In one of O’Dea’s pics above, one is green, the other silver.

Can you clarify if this is the photo you mean, please?  http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305576

I'm seeing a dirty aluminium TPO in that.

[DiveController]

You're right @BSGSV. When I spoke above about some obviously being green at some point, I was thinking of the trailing coach in that train which is NOT a 2972-8 series TPO and more likely a full brake which often ran with them. So now having established they ran in the silver livery I'm in search of a photo showing them (bogie TPOs) in green. Some older 6w TPOs ran in green but it's hard to find color pictures of them in either livery in the usual books or online. Search now continues for green.

Edited February 11, 2020 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, BSGSV said:

Can you clarify if this is the photo you mean, please?  http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305576

I'm seeing a dirty aluminium TPO in that.

Indeed you are, as it is - the one on the left is most certainly “silver”. The right-hand one is green.

The “proof” of these things in green is to be seen on the two examples preserved. While I can’t right now (being out of the country) put me hands to any pic of a green one, I’m sure I’ve seen it - but - even if I was totally mistaken, the paint traces on the preserved ones stand.

57 minutes ago, DiveController said:

You're right @BSGSV. When I spoke above about some obviously being green at some point, I was thinking of the trailing coach in that train which is NOT a 2972-8 series TPO and more likely a full brake which often ran with them. So now having established they ran in the silver livery I'm in search of a photo showing them (bogie TPOs) in green. Some older 6w TPOs ran in green but it's hard to find color pictures of them in either livery in the usual books or online. Search now continues for green.

Anything older than 1955-built obviously went from pre-‘55 dark lines green to the lighter green to BnT; obviously never being “silver”.

There was one oul crate of a (6-wheel) TPO thing built in 1877 - STILL in use until about 1960! 

I’ll see what else I can dig up.

[DiveController]

The only problem with that photo is that the second coach (in lined green) is not a TPO to my mind but if you've seen the green paint as you said above (duly noted the first iteration) please do post that photo if you have one when able. TIA

I'm not sure if this is the 2952-2954 45' Bogie TPO 2954 (1950 Ex-GSWR non-corridor gas-lit conversion) Athenry c.1961 (it's not mine, Ernie's if I remember correctly)

Edited February 11, 2020 by DiveController

[BSGSV]

8 hours ago, DiveController said:

You're right @BSGSV. When I spoke above about some obviously being green at some point, I was thinking of the trailing coach in that train which is NOT a 2972-8 series TPO and more likely a full brake which often ran with them. So now having established they ran in the silver livery I'm in search of a photo showing them (bogie TPOs) in green. Some older 6w TPOs ran in green but it's hard to find color pictures of them in either livery in the usual books or online. Search now continues for green.

Thank you for clarifying which photo. As you have surmised, the issue is that the second coach is in green, but is a 2549 series luggage van, not a TPO.

I will be following up on JHB's comments re the preserved examples in due course. 

[jhb171achill]

I’ll delve too, when I get home.

[Noel]

The whole idea of a travelling post office sorting van seems incredible in this day and age, yet it enabled overnight post in the days before email and www. Its incredible to think that men worked through the night pre-sorting post so that it could plug into local delivery offices routes.

[DiveController]

15 hours ago, BSGSV said:

Thank you for clarifying which photo. As you have surmised, the issue is that the second coach is in green, but is a 2549 series luggage van, not a TPO.

I will be following up on JHB's comments re the preserved examples in due course. 

 

14 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I’ll delve too, when I get home.

Thanks to both of you, please post if you have any further info/photos. And since you mentioned the 2549 series luggage vans, sure, may as well post that too! (.... incidentally the TPO at the end is a 2979-81)

Luggage Brake Van 2549 (1960 Inchicore) at Connolly , 1988 ....looks like one of the windows may have been sheeted over unless it just that light. There were several other converted from 1930s GSR-built coaches in the early seventies (.... I should really start a different thread shouldn't I?) 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by DiveController

[flange lubricator]

Again from the wonderful O'Dea collection  parcel van 2554 brand new 'out of the box ' perhaps on trial  1960 so freshly out shopped in green.

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304884

[TimO]

Looks like another luggage van in green behind a 121 in original grey followed by coach in b&t but what colour are the next two coaches?  Again photo is from O’Dea collection.
 

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306735

I also notice the very unusual ‘kink’ in the chassis on these vehicles just over the bogies. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by TimO
Link to photo corrected

[jhb171achill]

Which particular pic, TimO?

[TimO]

I have just corrected the link.

[flange lubricator]

51 minutes ago, TimO said:

 

 

I also notice the very unusual ‘kink’ in the chassis on these vehicles just over the bogies. 

The word kink is not something one would normally associate with the O'Dea collection but I see what you mean the kink as you call it is the triangulated under frame designed by Oliver Bullied and used on most Inchicore  built stock from the mid 1950's to mid 1960's.

[TimO]

Thanks.
I did not know that the triangulation included the narrowing of the chassis at the bogie connection point. The feature is very obvious in the O’Dea photo that you pointed to showing parcel van 2554.

[Glenderg]

Folks, stop looking at the stuff above the solebar, and just beneath it, along the rake and tell me what you see.... 

[DiveController]

33 minutes ago, Glenderg said:

Folks, stop looking at the stuff above the solebar, and just beneath it, along the rake and tell me what you see.... 

Full Luggage/Parcel van (rtr needed)

Cravens (available (ish))

Side Corridor Composite (desperately needed, one of my favorites!)

1950s 64s open Standard (also desperately needed)

Another laminate (but running out of pixels)

Fewer pixels but with with running boards 

A freaking CAD geeks paradise if you're running short of inspiration ( I know you're probably short of time) 

 

 

 

PS there's a separate thread for luggage parcel brakes above, any more info on TPOS?

(Yes, I know I introduced the subject above)

Edited February 13, 2020 by DiveController

[flange lubricator]

6 hours ago, Glenderg said:

Folks, stop looking at the stuff above the solebar, and just beneath it, along the rake and tell me what you see.... 

The only thing of note is the original Craven fitted with battery boxes