Anti-social behaviour.

[Broithe]

There appears to be a current rash of delays with this given as the reason.

 

Is this an increasing problem, a simple, transient 'seasonal' upsurge or is it indicative of more solid response to these situations?

[minister_for_hardship]

Without knowing the nature of the 'anti-social behaviour', it is hard to say.

 

Is it seasonal partygoers/12 pubs of Xmas shower or something else entirely?

[Broithe]

There were two this morning.

 

07:05hrs Tralee/Heuston was delayed by 25mins due to anti-social behaviour on-board, expect knock-on delays at intermediate stations.

 

09:45 Westport Heuston is currently stopped at Monasterevin awaiting Gardai due to anti social behaviour. Update to follow

 

Seems a bit of an early start for party time...

[jhb171achill]

Scumbags.

 

We often hear that this country has a problem with drink. That's as maybe. I believe it's worse - it's a lax toleration by the authorities, and the seeming aversion in our society to anything that is seen as punishment or discipline. Discipline is a dirty word. Look at countries with safe clean public transport (and streets); the sight of a policeman hauling someone up for minor things (e.g..dropping litter) is expected (rather than tolerated). In the highly unlikely event of a Garda or PSNI man nailing someone for that, or graffiti, or shouting obscenities on a railway platform, the usual hand-wringing idiots would be out in force berating the cops and saying "sure leave 'im alone" etc etc....

 

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but unless law enforcement agencies, courts, judges and even railway officials with power to apply bye laws, start taking seriously a zero tolerance approach to this type of thing, it'll just go on and get worse.

[Broithe]

I just wonder if the current events are a sign of a less 'tolerant' approach - I do hope so.

[thewanderer]

Today was the worst day I can remember in a long time for antisocial behaviour and gardai needing to be called to the train to remove disruptive "customers".

 

Along with the above two incidents, there were another three incidents which required Gardai to be called to remove or deal with passengers. None of the trains involved would what would be called "returning home after a party" train.

[Broithe]

There do appear to have been several others, not just the two I've mentioned above, though I'm a little confused as to which is which now and don't want to mention the same one twice.

 

It just has looked like an epidemic of it today - let's see what tomorrow brings....

 

..and that the consequences are sufficient to make it a less 'attractive' proposition in the future..

[jhb171achill]

Out of interest, Wanderer, without all the gory details, what type of behaviour was typical?

 

Given that a railway is a public place, do IE have it within their legal remit to ban anyone from travelling on trains outright? If so, is there any way at all of enforcing it? If not, why not?

 

There should be a "one strike" approach to this. If you're thrown off a train or bus once, that's it. You can't go back on them. And - anyone on drugs is automatically banned.

[Broithe]

Airlines can, and do, ban disruptive passengers, but they have the benefit of requiring identification for security purposes, even for 'internal' flights - railway travel hasn't entered that era yet.

 

It would be difficult to detect a banned passenger in the current circumstances, unless he drew attention to himself.

 

 

A friend of mine was banned from an entire supermarket chain because of his tendency to talk to the staff until they could stand no more.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Broithe

[thewanderer]

I would echo Broithe's comments.

 

I do know a certain man from Cork nearly was banned but there was no legal way to enforce it afaik.

 

As for type of trouble? Don't know the details, usually get a alert "delayed due to passenger trouble. Gardai called". That could be as minor as a passenger refusing to buy/show a ticket to a fight on a train. Although the fights do tend to get mentioned in the alerts!

[Broithe]

It would be feasible to get an injunction banning rail travel and, if the person broke the injunction, either being recognised, or informed upon, then that could amount to contempt of court.

 

In the UK, it's common enough to find such conditions in ASBOs and it is frequently applied in bail conditions, apparently, for rail-related transgressions.

 

Enforcement and detection are the issues - though, face-recognition technology is improving all the time.

 

Lifetime and temporary bans from football grounds are fairly common here, and suffer from the same difficulty of detection as a railway ban would, though the scenes and times are rather more restricted, I suppose.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Broithe

[Mayner]

It would be feasible to get an injunction banning rail travel and, if the person broke the injunction, either being recognised, or informed upon, then that could amount to contempt of court.

 

In the UK, it's common enough to find such conditions in ASBOs and it is frequently applied in bail conditions, apparently, for rail-related transgressions.

 

Enforcement and detection are the issues - though, face-recognition technology is improving all the time.

 

Lifetime and temporary bans from football grounds are fairly common here, and suffer from the same difficulty of detection as a railway ban would, though the scenes and times are rather more restricted, I suppose.

 

From memory abusive passenger behaviour seemed to be more prevalent on CIE/IE than on British Rail, possibly the Gardaí did not want to get involved and not much a lone conductor or railway guard could do once trouble started on a train. Surprising to see morning trains disrupted possibly passegers still under the influence from the night or day before

[Broithe]

The 'sport-based' disorder in the UK gave a good training ground for combating this sort of thing - much easier to organise against than random events.

 

Going on a train on a Saturday, before football went 24-7, was not always a good idea.

 

I used to try to be aware of football fixtures and attempt to avoid certain teams' matches, though the worst event of all (by far) was down to Australian rugby fans.

 

Over the last 25 years, my rail travel has been fairly evenly split between UK and Ireland, with almost all the 'entertainment' here on the big island.

 

Whenever coppers have eventually got involved, they have been whatever the local force in the area is. I've only ever seen BTP once in my life and they didn't seem to be on an emergency at the time.

 

I did once have what turned out to be a copper jump on me from behind as I entered the station, only for his mate to shout "It's not him!", causing him to jump off and release me with a "Sorry, mate", before I could react at all...

[jhb171achill]

I would echo Broithe's comments.

 

I do know a certain man from Cork nearly was banned but there was no legal way to enforce it afaik.

 

!

 

I think I know who you mean, Neil - if it's who I think it is, I took it upon myself a few years ago to tell him not to come into the carriage I was in with a tour group. He demanded my name, which I gave him, and told me he was going to report me. Then he told me he ran the railway. I said to him, "so who are you going to report me to? Yourself?"...and I stood in his way and told him in no uncertain terms to get out of the carriage I was in, which he did. The IE train host thanked me, as he had been giving trouble elsewhere in the train.

 

But that approach can be rarely used, of course.

 

NO LEGAL WAY to enforce a BAN! What sort of stupid, crass, idiotic legal system is that! Is it any wonder that pond life get away with murder in public? It is - it has to be - the old Irish thing of an utter hatred of all sorts of authority. A rule enforced will always be seen as a jumped up "jobsworth" taking out petty grudges on a poor oul decent oul fella of the public.

 

That's rubbish, abject utter rubbish. IE's management should be lobbying politicians, senior legal people and whoever to gain the authority to simply throw people out at the next station. So it's raining, and December, and you're off your skull on funny powders and cigarettes and you can't get home? Tough. If IE can't get that authority, they need to flood certain services (many DARTs) with large Polish ex-army security men. Incidentally, the LUAS needs more of these folks as well.

[Glenderg]

The 'sport-based' disorder in the UK gave a good training ground for combating this sort of thing - much easier to organise against than random events.

 

Going on a train on a Saturday, before football went 24-7, was not always a good idea.

 

I used to try to be aware of football fixtures and attempt to avoid certain teams' matches, though the worst event of all (by far) was down to Australian rugby fans.

 

Over the last 25 years, my rail travel has been fairly evenly split between UK and Ireland, with almost all the 'entertainment' here on the big island.

 

Whenever coppers have eventually got involved, they have been whatever the local force in the area is. I've only ever seen BTP once in my life and they didn't seem to be on an emergency at the time.

 

I did once have what turned out to be a copper jump on me from behind as I entered the station, only for his mate to shout "It's not him!", causing him to jump off and release me with a "Sorry, mate", before I could react at all...

 

Sounds a lot like Murder She Wrote here, where the "innocent" was present at a lot of crime scenes.... "It's not him!" my eye....

 

An JB, where can I get these funny powders you speak of? Weathering ones, I assume in Marks' ?

 

R

[minister_for_hardship]

I do abhor the term (or rather euphemism) 'anti-social behaviour'

 

Sounds more like not engaging with people at a dinner party rather than acting like a scumbag.

[Broithe]

Another one this morning....

Delays up to 15 minutes to DART & Commuter services due earlier anti-social behaviour at Donabate.

 

And it's not swans...

[jhb171achill]

 

An JB, where can I get these funny powders you speak of? Weathering ones, I assume in Marks' ?

 

R

 

 

Aha, Glenderg! You obviously know the Grand Secret of Marks!!! I've never breathed weathering powders meself, yer onner, and I wasn't even there when I didn't breathe 'em, and it wasn't Glenderg who didn't sell 'em to me.

 

I don't do hardcore stuff, I just sniff Humbrol matt CIE orange. And maybe a bit of UTA green.

[Broithe]

An JB, where can I get these funny powders you speak of? Weathering ones, I assume in Marks' ?

Aha, Glenderg! You obviously know the Grand Secret of Marks!!! I've never breathed weathering powders meself, yer onner, and I wasn't even there when I didn't breathe 'em, and it wasn't Glenderg who didn't sell 'em to me.

 

I don't do hardcore stuff, I just sniff Humbrol matt CIE orange. And maybe a bit of UTA green.

Possibly the origin of the phrase "Feeling a bit under the weather"....

[jhb171achill]

Possibly the origin of the phrase "Feeling a bit under the weather"....

 

 

Hahaha excellent! I still, say, both when under and over the humbfluence of influol, that these "anti-social" morons should be just kicked out at the next station "get out and walk". If they've no money, they're 67 miles from home, and no jacket, and it's minus seven, and they don't know the way, all the better.

[DiveController]

Another one this morning....

Delays up to 15 minutes to DART & Commuter services due earlier anti-social behaviour at Donabate.

 

And it's not swans...

Now, does the person engaging in anti-social behaviour have to compensate the passengers for the delay, in much the same way as was suggested as penance for the RPSI recently?

[hurricanemk1c]

Now, does the person engaging in anti-social behaviour have to compensate the passengers for the delay, in much the same way as was suggested as penance for the RPSI recently?

 

They should be...... a nice bill for a couple of thousand or work removing grafitti / rubbish in leui of payment. Or a prison term

[jhb171achill]

They should be...... a nice bill for a couple of thousand or work removing grafitti / rubbish in leui of payment. Or a prison term

 

 

Exactly.