21mm gauge track; the pros and cons?

[murphaph]

Thx! Yeah I couldn't resist filing a couple of rails up to make a crossing vee but I need more supplies before I really make progress and I'm sure I will only realise "oh I need x" as I start actually making stuff in anger.

One point to note: Contrary to what I have read on some other forums, the new Marcway (SMP) sleepers (the fibre glass ones) are laser cut, not guillotined. I had read some criticism of them when compared to C&L but it appears this info is now out of date.

[StevieB]

On 18/1/2021 at 1:16 PM, StevieB said:

That was a good, but short series, of articles. I believe others were Killarney, Carlow and Rathmore. An interesting variety.

Stephen

And Muine Bheag.

Stephen

[murphaph]

The Carr's detailing solder seems very expensive. Any ideas for an alternative low temp solid solder like this?

Preferably something available outside the UK.

Rice says one should use a low temp 145 degree flux free solder.

[Andy Cundick]

I just use 188 cored solder,works a treat with a 40w iron in and out quick,works even with whitemetal.Andy

[Colin R]

you might find the following links useful

https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/knowledge-centre

there are two parts which are worth reading

1 https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/copy-of-c-l-product-diagrams

2 https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/solderingtechniques

you should also read this as well

https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/healthandsafety

While the above is a bit dated it will give you the basic type of solder to use and to obtain, I am sure there must be more that the Carr's range to buy in Ireland or via the Internet check soldering out on eBay I am sure there used to be someone who could sell you solder from France or Germany being in the EU and all that.

Colin R

Edited January 30, 2021 by Colin R
added infomation

[Colin R]

Hi Guys a couple more links for you, sorry they are both in the UK, but, it is worth looking. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l2632&_nkw=low+melt+solder&_sacat=180250

https://www.eileensemporium.com/materials-for-modellers/category/solder-flux-etc

Edited January 30, 2021 by Colin R

[murphaph]

Right so I will just buy a more readily available 183 degree solder and see how I get on with that first.

Thanks chaps.

[Brendan8056]

Well done on purchasing the materials to become a fully fledged Irish Gauge Modeller. 

  For the track I make I use just ordinary tin/lead solder, on a roll. A roll lasts years and I use it for wiring and track work. Track I made 30 years ago has no problems apart from an occasional dry joint or 3.  

[murphaph]

Rice says to use paste flux and a coreless solder. Is this just to have less clean up afterwards I wonder?

I've honestly never paid much attention to the solder I've bought for general electrical and electronics stuff. Hence my questions here I guess. 

[Galteemore]

I use paste flux. Arguably more clear up! 2 benefits to it - it’s fairly static when in place, and you can see it more easily ! Wash off with dilute meths or Viakal. Washing also shows up which sleepers weren’t properly soldered....as you can see!

Edited January 30, 2021 by Galteemore

[Colin R]

We all get lazy when it comes to soldering and so to use the stuff from the DIY shop is a good start, the different types of solder 183/188 deg solder will require a bit of testing to get used to it, if you have a bit of scarp PCB to play with so you can hone your technique, the one thing I would add is don't hold the soldering iron on for to long as this will affect the PCB glue which holds the copper to the insulation, Also it is worth tinning the sleeper before you add the rail section, if that is the method you are planning to use.

Sorry if this sounds like Gran ma being taught to suck eggs but the advice is give from someone who has managed to screw up some homemade track with out any help   

[Andy Cundick]

The main point is joint needs to be clean,a glassfibre brush is ideal for this.I've never bothered with flux when using cored solder for the last forty odd years,its quick simple and you don't have the issue of cleaning up corrosive flux after Andy.

[murphaph]

I already ordered a local alternative to the Fry's powerflow flux (it's actually from the plumbing trade I believe, used as a flux on copper fittings, so a suitable alternative was easy enough to source here. I imagine they will work similarly anyway as they are for the exact same purpose) so I am going to try the coreless SnPb + flux way first and see how that goes. Melting point of the stuff I found is 183 degrees. If it's no use I can still use it for electrical work. It's lower temp than the lead free stuff I have here for electronics.

I guess I will find my own path with time. I'm just trying to avoid being railroaded into looking exclusively for stuff in Rice's book because it's almost exclusively UK only and difficult to come by here in Germany.

Oh here are the few bits I got from the S4 society:

 

Note the check rail gauge is for P4, not Irish P4. I just wanted to see how it's made and maybe modify it if possible. It was only a few quid. The rest of the gauges are 21mm however.

Edited January 30, 2021 by murphaph

[murphaph]

What are you guys using to cut your PCB point sleeper strips to exact length? Any experience with "the chopper" as I've seen mentioned around the web?

 

Oh and a chap on a German modelling forum said something like "Our English friends are very peculiar in their ways when it comes to choosing a solder. They seem to have all sorts of odd alloys available. I always use 60/40 SnPb unless soldering white metal". He also told me something on a more technical level: SnPb won't ever melt below 183 degrees C. The Carr's stuff must contain something else and he told me about Tin/Bismuth SnBi solder which is actually probably what the Carr's detailing solder is:

https://www.jufengsolder.com/low-temperature-solder-wire-/sn42bi58-low-temperture-solder-wire-1.html

The thing is, it's really difficult to find in Germany he said, usually only as a paste. So I'll stick with trying the 183 degree stuff I have on order for now.

Edited January 30, 2021 by murphaph

[David Holman]

Whatever works for you may be the answer. I've used 145 solder wire for years. A half kilo roll cost thirty quid ten years ago and replaced it for over fifty quid last year. However, seriously more expensive if you buy it by the metre!

 Though I tend to use 145 as my go to (because it flows really nicely), also have a stick of both 180 and 80 (low melt), plus the standard 240 wire with a flux core. When you are adding details with a kit, it helps to have different temperatures to work with.

 That said, rarely use low melt, as prefer 5 minute epoxy to fix castings, not least because this gives you time to adjust the position of each piece. Likewise, find wire solder easier to work with that stick. The purists would not doubt say you shouldn't carry solder to the work on the tip of your iron anyway, though am afraid old habits die hard!

[Andy Cundick]

I use my Xuron track cuttersthey do a good job and cut rail as well.The Chopper you refer to iassume is the NWSL Chopper which really good for cutting plastic not sure how it would cope with PCB,Andy

[David Holman]

Yup, Xuron works on track just fine, but wouldn't want to use my NWSL Chopper on copperclad - the blade is just a safety razor blade. Copperclad is not that easy to cut. Doesn't like a craft knife, doesn't snap, takes time to saw and hence often use a slitting disc. Xuron cutter ok on thin pieces, but needs cleaning up with a file after.

[murphaph]

Thanks chaps, then I will just use the Xuron cutter for now and see how I get on  

[Angus]

One thing you might want to consider are solder balls

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tin-Material-BGA-Solder-Ball-Repair-Tools-leaded-for-ICchip-Reballing-Balls/363225899211?hash=item5491f360cb:g:l4IAAOSwViVf3QJK

They can be found relatively cheaply and 25,000 would last a while..... (there are local stockist on ebay who can deliver in short timescales if need be but you have to pay a bit more.)

These are widely used by those us us working in 2mm scale, I find one 0.6mm ball per joint works well. For 4mm use one 0.6 ball either side of the joint.

The advantage is control over the amount of solder used, this gives a consistent appearance once complete.

The technique is easy after bit of practise, lay out the sleepers, apply a small amount of flux to the areas under the rails to be soldered.

Lay the rails in place.

Tip some of the balls into a saucer and by using a toothpick with the end dipped in a bit of water you can pick up individual balls and place the balls into the flux on the sleeper. The balls will stick to flux.

If the rail is held in place then all you need to do is apply the iron so it heats both the sleeper and the rail and the balls will flash forming a joint.

You can systematically work along the track applying flux to a section, following through the balls before finally soldering the lot in a batch process.

 

Oh, and by the way, be careful with Powerflux, it is good stuff but needs careful cleaning.

If not washed thoroughly everything will turn a nice shade of green if left.

Personally I use a less aggressive water based flux that seems easier to clean up. that said, as with all things, it comes down to personal preference.

[David Holman]

Solder balls - who'd have thought it? Certainly some clever folk out there.

Thanks Angus.

[murphaph]

The solder balls idea seems very suitable for our application. I think I'll give it a go as well when I'm doing scenic stuff.

I've ordered a jar of them for a tenner. I think it's worth a shot sooner rather than later, the idea sounds so good.

Edited January 31, 2021 by murphaph