Bogie Luggage Vans

[DiveController]

While discussing the bogie TPOs of the 1950-90 period on another thread, it seemed appropriate that the full bogie luggage vans that often ran with them (and in many other train formation) should have their own thread. No doubt they have discussed many times and in many places on the fora over the years

2549-58 series bogie full Luggage/Brake Van 2554 (1960) Dublin Connolly, 1988 with side lookout

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by DiveController

[flange lubricator]

Again from the wonderful O'Dea collection  parcel van 2554 brand new 'out of the box ' perhaps on trial  1960 so freshly out shopped in green.

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304884

 

[DiveController]

Amazing job, @flange lubricator, it's the same van!

And here's another, the 2559-2561 trio were modified from GSR built coaches of the 1930s and put into traffic in 1971, same capacity as the others "6 tons evenly distributed", GSR boxes (cf. the O' Dea photo with Commonwealth bogies)

2560, Cork 1982

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by DiveController

[Mayner]

The CIE parcel business expanded greatly in the early 70s with the introduction of CIEs Fastrak parcel service and over night Newspaper Trains delivering the Dublin morning newspapers to provincial destinations, the newspaper trains ended in the late 70s when the business was transferred to CIEs road freight operations.

The CIE parcel vans would have run separately in mails, newspaper and parcel trains without TPOs or without Heating vans, trains could be a loco and a single Parcel van to an entire train of vans.

The Wexford Newspaper train originally appears to have consisted of a loco and a single coach, but was transformed for a short period in the late 70s to an additional Wexford-Connolly summer season evening passenger train and return empty coaching stock & newspaper train when the coaching stock  of the Wexford-Rosslare local passenger were used to provide the coaches of the additional Dublin passenger.

The up & Down Athlone-Westport Night Mail was usually worked by a loco and a Parcel Van, the van was attached and detached from the Dublin-Galway Night Mail at Athlone.

[DiveController]

1 hour ago, flange lubricator said:

Again from the wonderful O'Dea collection  parcel van 2554 brand new 'out of the box ' perhaps on trial  1960 so freshly out shopped in green.

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304884

 

Took me a few minutes to figure out why it referred to them as the new 616 vans in the O' Dea collection, the new 61'6" chassis length

 

2562-2591 series (1973) bogie full Luggage/Brake Van 2583 at Dublin Connolly in 1986. Twenty-three were built from earlier passenger coaches (maybe 1449 laminates looking the window configuration and rebuild required but that's just a guess). Introduced in 1973 presumably to carry the Fastrak traffic referred to by John (above)

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

22 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Took me a few minutes to figure out why it referred to them as the new 616 vans in the O' Dea collection, the new 61'6" chassis length

I've been through the entire O'Dea collection in the NLI a couple of times.

It's important to recall that it was them, rather than Jim O'Dea, who wrote the captions, and they are absolutely riddled with errors.....

You'll get things like "No. 171 train S in Portadown" - meaning - "S class Locomotive No. 171 at Portadown" and that sort of thing.....

Now, to be fair, the overwhelming majority are of course correct, but beware!

Edited February 12, 2020 by jhb171achill

[BSGSV]

9 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

Again from the wonderful O'Dea collection  parcel van 2554 brand new 'out of the box ' perhaps on trial  1960 so freshly out shopped in green.

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304884

 

Another great spot. Another of the same type behind 2554 as well. They were new then, and still with the Guard's ducket.

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

It's important to recall that it was them, rather than Jim O'Dea, who wrote the captions, and they are absolutely riddled with errors.....

James O'Dea did write on the back of his prints, but sometimes the translation to the NLI title can go a bit astray. 

[BSGSV]

9 hours ago, DiveController said:

Amazing job, @flange lubricator, it's the same van!

And here's another, the 2559-2561 trio were modified from GSR built coaches of the 1930s and put into traffic in 1971, same capacity as the others "6 tons evenly distributed", GSR boxes (cf. the O' Dea photo with Commonwealth bogies)

2560, Cork 1982

 

A rare one to see, many thanks. 2559 to 61 converted from 2115, 2120, 2121 corridor compos in early 1971. 2115 was 1935, the other pair 1937, so a change in width between the first and the other pair, the bulge at the waist is easy to see. All 60' long.

The later conversions, 2562 etc., were CIE 1950's composite conversions, some of the composites having been downgraded to all third in the interim, starting in mid-1973. The four wheel tin vans were going fast in the early 70's.

Edited February 12, 2020 by BSGSV

[Mayner]

Although I fantasized in my youth about a narrow gauge tramway along the road from Lucan to Celbridge, Clane and Sallins , I never realised that Straffan was a major junction with the narrow gauge.

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=straffan&type=AllFields&page=2&view=list

 

[jhb171achill]

43 minutes ago, BSGSV said:

Another great spot. Another of the same type behind 2554 as well. They were new then, and still with the Guard's ducket.

James O'Dea did write on the back of his prints, but sometimes the translation to the NLI title can go a bit astray. 

Yes, exactly. The 2nd time I went through them, I started listing errors or things that weren’t actually incorrect, but clumsily worded e.g. something like “A J15 train at Sallins train station” sort of thing. Same with the Lawrence Collection - though in that case it’s non-railway stuff mostly. They do have one pic of Clifden station listed as Achill - but that was Lawrence’s mistake, not the NLI.

None of us are perfect, I suppose!

[BSGSV]

47 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Although I fantasized in my youth about a narrow gauge tramway along the road from Lucan to Celbridge, Clane and Sallins , I never realised that Straffan was a major junction with the narrow gauge.

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=straffan&type=AllFields&page=2&view=list

 

Meh. Straffan. Strabane. Just down the road from each other.

As JHB says, we all make mistakes, and I am very grateful for James O'Dea for taking the photographs and NLI for getting them visible to the rest of us.

[DART8118]

If NLI have got a caption wrong they'll happily checking it and corrected if you notify them.  

8118

 

[flange lubricator]

7 hours ago, BSGSV said:

A rare one to see, many thanks. 2559 to 61 converted from 2115, 2120, 2121 corridor compos in early 1971. 2115 was 1935, the other pair 1937, so a change in width between the first and the other pair, the bulge at the waist is easy to see. All 60' long.

The later conversions, 2562 etc., were CIE 1950's composite conversions, some of the composites having been downgraded to all third in the interim, starting in mid-1973. The four wheel tin vans were going fast in the early 70's.

That's a fabulous picture and rare too of 2560 this was withdrawn not long  after this picture was taken , when you look at the dimensions of this coach a conversion from a Dapol Stainer 60' wouldn't be  beyond the realms of possibility to reproduce a very good model . I love the Lettering under the number 'tender no lights'.

 

[flange lubricator]

15 hours ago, DiveController said:

Took me a few minutes to figure out why it referred to them as the new 616 vans in the O' Dea collection, the new 61'6" chassis length

 

2562-2591 series (1973) bogie full Luggage/Brake Van 2583 at Dublin Connolly in 1986. Twenty-three were built from earlier passenger coaches (maybe 1449 laminates looking the window configuration and rebuild required but that's just a guess). Introduced in 1973 presumably to carry the Fastrak traffic referred to by John (above)

 

The very humble parcel van yet through the mid 1970's  to late 1980's featured on many trains throughout the system even featuring as single coach with loco on the Tralee and Sligo mail trains , they were converted from 1950's built compo's  and standard coaches not Laminate's, 2583 was 1613  a compo  built 1951 and converted to a van in 1974 . I was hoping that Mayner might consider doing an brass overlay for these  , the only difficulties would be the number of doors's which might make the cost prohibitive .

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, flange lubricator said:

The very humble parcel van yet through the mid 1970's  to late 1980's featured on many trains throughout the system even featuring as single coach with loco on the Tralee and Sligo mail trains , they were converted from 1950's built compo's  and standard coaches not Laminate's, 2583 was 1613  a compo  built 1951 and converted to a van in 1974 . I was hoping that Mayner might consider doing an brass overlay for these  , the only difficulties would be the number of doors's which might make the cost prohibitive .

I am prepared to consider producing a set of luggage van sides & doors or a full kit, if there are expressions of interest for a minimum of 10 sets of sides or complete vans. 

The 2549-58 or 2559-61 version with sliding or inward opening doors would be a simpler option the doors hinges and handles on the later conversions would be difficult to reproduce.

The doors could be included on the same photo tooling as the sides along with bonus items like battery boxes would or coach ends with windows would help keep the overall cost down.

SSM produce a very nice model of the original GSR Bredin Luggage Van which remained in service for many years, its a good starter kit for people with limited soldering skills as the body bolts together, the bogies are slot and tab assembly.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Mayner

[Noel]

2 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

The very humble parcel van yet through the mid 1970's  to late 1980's featured on many trains throughout the system even featuring as single coach with loco on the Tralee and Sligo mail trains , they were converted from 1950's built compo's  and standard coaches not Laminate's, 2583 was 1613  a compo  built 1951 and converted to a van in 1974 . I was hoping that Mayner might consider doing an brass overlay for these  , the only difficulties would be the number of doors's which might make the cost prohibitive .

Yes these are iconic vans for the 60s to 70s CIE era that is my main nostalgia memory. Last year I kit bashed a Bachmann Parcel van into a pseudo CIE version

Before

Edited February 12, 2020 by Noel

[flange lubricator]

Looks great Noel

[DiveController]

 

[flange lubricator]

20 hours ago, Mayner said:

I am prepared to consider producing a set of luggage van sides & doors or a full kit, if there are expressions of interest for a minimum of 10 sets of sides or complete van.

I would certainly be interested in two.

[Noel]

23 hours ago, Mayner said:

I am prepared to consider producing a set of luggage van sides & doors or a full kit, if there are expressions of interest for a minimum of 10 sets of sides or complete vans. 

Would certainly be interest in one, especially if I could persuade @murrayec Eoin to build it for me. Me and Brass don't get on, so I'd happily defer to the forum's brass master especially after seeing the master piece he built for Jonathan.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Noel
Lexdysia

[DiveController]

I would be most interested in two of a full kit for the 2549-2558 series vans which were the widest vans at 10' wide the others being 9'6" or less at 9'3" @Mayner. This profile best represent the 1950s prototypical look. Interestingly when I looked at Doyle and Hirsch's book on rolling stock I was surprised to find the the 2549 series are on 60' frame even though we had talked about the new 616 vans above! Can anyone confirm from another source(s)

 

[flange lubricator]

The 2549-2558 vans were a  complete copy of 2548 which was a Bredin designed Van from 1935  built by the GSR for the Cork mails with  the exact same dimensions 60'0 long 10'0 wide the major difference being the latter version used a triangulated underframe and commonwealth 8'0 bogies , as mentioned by Mayner  above SSM models already do model  2548 as a brass  kit . 

http://www.studio-scale-models.com/BredV.shtml

Another picture of the van new with a very well turned out Guard standing beside it .

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305119

Edited February 13, 2020 by flange lubricator

[Mayner]

The 10' width for the vans in the Doyle & Hirsch book may be a typo, the vans appear to be more upright in profile than the tear drop profile of the 10' wide coaching stock.

The  1935 Bredin van appears to have had a maximum width of 9' with a slight tumblehome above the solebars, Bredin increased the maximum width to 9'6" with the 1937 coaching stock with a more tear drop profile seem in the photo of 2560.

I would recommend obtaining a set of 2549-2558 drawing or diagrams either from the Chief Mechanical Engineers Office at Inchacore Works or through the IRRS if IE have disposed of the drawings.

A set of sides or a van based on the Bredin or CIE Composite conversions may be a better option as I have a CIE drawing of a Composite to BSSGV conversion.

 

[BSGSV]

Irish Railfans' News, on introduction, has 2549 - 58 as 61' 6" long and 9' wide.

[jhb171achill]

5 minutes ago, BSGSV said:

Irish Railfans' News, on introduction, has 2549 - 58 as 61' 6" long and 9' wide.

Which issue, do you know?

[seagoebox]

According to the CIE "classification of coaching stock" index dated 1st February 1961...

Vans 2549 - 2558, all built 1960

63' 11" buffer to buffer

60' 0" over headstocks

10' maximum width

12' 10 and a quarter inches maximum height

10 ton max distributed load (later reduced to 6 tons)

[BSGSV]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Which issue, do you know?

Volume 6, Number 2, April 1960.

Also says the max. load is 6 tons.

Given what the official records show though...

[jhb171achill]

Interesting that there's a discrepancy, as while we've already observed that mistakes can be made, I have never personally found any discrepancy in old IRRS journal stuff, NOR, of course, in official records!

[Mayner]

Official records are not always 100% accurate and without a surviving van its impossible to check if the physical dimensions.

Differences often exist between the original concept design and the end result in engineering projects.

I have an "official" drawings of the AEC railcars and a "Beet Double" which are substantially different to ther actual as-built vehicles.

 

 

I am inclined to believe that CIE used the original 1935 body design with vertical sides above waist level on a triangulated underframe for the 1959 vans.

The duckets and outward sliding doors are the giveaway that the vans were built to a narrower width, van doors were recessed into the body and guards lookout duckets were not fitted to wider coaches with a teardrop end profile like the Laminate Coaches and heating vans as they would have fouled the loading gauge.

[DiveController]

6 hours ago, Mayner said:

I am inclined to believe that CIE used the original 1935 body design with vertical sides above waist level on a triangulated underframe for the 1959 vans.

The duckets and outward sliding doors are the giveaway that the vans were built to a narrower width, van doors were recessed into the body and guards lookout duckets were not fitted to wider coaches with a teardrop end profile like the Laminate Coaches and heating vans as they would have fouled the loading gauge.

I like your logic, John, regarding the lookout and the doors. What were the actual maximum dimensions of the Irish loading gauge?

Regardless of the discrepancy, thanks to all who replied. I realize that your contributions take time to research and post.  

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by DiveController

[flange lubricator]

Curiouser and curiouser , Des Coackhams book Irish broad guage carriages refers to the twelve coaches built by the GSR as 60'0" long and 9'0" wide which I think  maybe  incorrect they were not all uniform  . Looking at pictures 10'0" seems too wide more likely 9'6" or 9'0"wide ? here is another picture from the O'Dea collection of the 1960 built van next to a four wheeled heating van which is 10'0" at waist . Both coaches would be either 9'0"or9'6" at cantrails the bogies vans always looked  very straight or slab sided .

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304884

in the IRRS journal no 37 vol 7 Modern CIE coaching stock by D Kennedy he mentions the vans as 61'6" long 9'0" wide and a carrying capacity of 6 tonnes.

Edited February 15, 2020 by flange lubricator

[DiveController]

Another lovely view of 2550 but no help with regards to the dimensional issues

2549-58 series luggage van 2550 at Thurles Feb 1960, I think this is the one attached to the rear of 2554 above

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304885

[Mayner]

12 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

Curiouser and curiouser , Des Coackhams book Irish broad guage carriages refers to the twelve coaches built by the GSR as 60'0" long and 9'0" wide which I think  maybe  incorrect they were not all uniform  . Looking at pictures 10'0" seems too wide more likely 9'6" or 9'0"wide ? here is another picture from the O'Dea collection of the 1960 built van next to a four wheeled heating van which is 10'0" at waist . Both coaches would be either 9'0"or9'6" at cantrails the bogies vans always looked  very straight or slab sided .

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304884

in the IRRS journal no 37 vol 7 Modern CIE coaching stock by D Kennedy he mentions the vans as 61'6" long 9'0" wide and a carrying capacity of 6 tonnes.

Interesting the photo indicates that vans were built without a horizontal cover slip at cantrail level between the sides and roof, unlike the heating van. The nails securing the roof cladding to the sides is visible in the Thurles photo. 

The coverslips appeared to have been added at a later date which makes it easier for someone wanting to model these coaches.

I would imaging the CIE would have used the standard 61'6" triangulated underframe & standard roof jigs for the 1959 vans, the body appears to be of traditional timber frame construction with aluminium cladding, rather than the Laminated panels used in the Laminate coaches and 4w heating & luggage vans.

Inchacore reverted to timber frame construction for its final coaches a batch of 7 2nd Class Coaches in 1962 & 2 1st Class coaches in 1964, these appear to have the similar end profile to the vans and pre-Park Royal stock.

[flange lubricator]

Here's another O'Dea photo of the vans under construction

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304519

Edited February 15, 2020 by flange lubricator

[jhb171achill]

17 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

Here's another O'Dea photo of the vans under construction

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304519

Plasticard or brass?