CIE-built 1950s Wooden Coaching Stock (Pre - Laminate Stock)

[DiveController]

I should have posted this in Photos & Videos of the prototype: If it could be moved easily by a moderator that would be appreciated:

 When CIE began its coaching stock replacement program in the early 1950s, it continued the traditional wooden coach building employed by the GSR and its predecessors. Over the decades, the length of coaches built by these companies had gradually increased from 4w to 6w coaches,  then bogie stock on 45', 50', 57' and eventually 60' underframes by the 1940s. Other than the earliest composites built in 1951, the standard length chassis was then increased to 61'6" and remained at that length for decades to follow. The GSR style under frame and bogies were still used, until Bulleid's triangulated underframe and laminated panel construction began with the construction of a large fleet of Park Royal coaches in 1955. This continued with the Cravens fleet that followed.

 For years compartment/corridor coaches had dominated coach building until 1953 when the first centre open coaches for half a century were built as intermediates for the AEC railcars introduced in 1951. These 64 seat centre aisle open coaches had tables and a window shared by 4 seats. 

This is a nice 3/4 shot from a Flickr member whom photographed a fair number of important CIE coaches  in the early 80s near the end of their working lives.

1356-71 series CIE Open Standard No. 1361 (1953) originally turned out by Inchicore in pre-1955 CIE green but after 30 years of service is seen in post 1963 BnT with single white stripe below the cantrail, Cork 1982

 

 

CIE 1356-71 series Standard Class Open (1953) No. 1368, Tralee, 1984 (note vertically extended lap window arrangement)

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by DiveController

[DiveController]

Standard Open 1449-1496 (1958) No. 1465 at Tralee, 1984 ( a large of class of 64s open coaches with different roof vents)

Edited February 18, 2020 by DiveController

[Mayner]

Nice clear photos Kevin a very useful resource!  although 1465 is a Laminate rather than a pre-laminate coach

The photos of 1361 & 1465 nicely illustrate the visual differences between traditional timber frame and Laminate coach construction.

I hope you follow up with the side corridor stock & the buffet cars

[DiveController]

@Mayner

Good point, John. It looks like I got ahead of myself late last night due to the excitement of such a nice 1449- photo, (right before QA in NZ came online). The photos are not mine as you can see by clicking on them but they are good and worth posting.

Credit to the photographer who had the wit and opportunity to take them.

I would like to get more laminate stock on the forum but if you want to comment further on the visual differences please do so as I am always amazed at the things you take for granted that I have not yet even spotted!

Edited February 18, 2020 by DiveController

[exciecoachbuilder]

Hi guys, just a quick comment on the coach 1465. That coach was part of the  ' rebuild ' program done in the carriage shop in Inchicore works between 1978/ 79. The only original (1950's) parts that you can see in the photograph , is the roof and the gangway ends of the coach. A lot of the doors were replaced too. The sawmill which was at the time , located within the carriage shop was very very busy in those days.

[BSGSV]

1 hour ago, exciecoachbuilder said:

Hi guys, just a quick comment on the coach 1465. That coach was part of the  ' rebuild ' program done in the carriage shop in Inchicore works between 1978/ 79. The only original (1950's) parts that you can see in the photograph , is the roof and the gangway ends of the coach. A lot of the doors were replaced too. The sawmill which was at the time , located within the carriage shop was very very busy in those days.

In the hope you might know, I know Mayner and myself would be interested if you would have any information on whether the original panels used woodfibre or asbestos insulation board (or something else) between the exterior aluminium sheet and the internal veneer? Did the replacements use similar laminated panels, or did the re-builds get done in more traditional coach building manner? Did the original laminate framing also get replaced? Any information would be gratefully received.

[exciecoachbuilder]

Hi lads, 

I don't recall any insulation on those type of coaches. I remember that the body side panels were just a thin sheet of timber with an aluminium outer skin glued onto the thin timber panel, and a veneered panel on the inside. There was no framing as such on the sides, instead there was a timber pillar from the cant rail ( top rail) to the bottom side (bottom section) each side of the windows. The only framing that I can remember was around the toilet section, and the end gangway sections of the coach.Also, they were the only coaches that were ever referred to as ( by coachbuilders in Inchicore works anyway. ) laminates. The new sides were done in a cheaper ' hurried up' way of traditional coachbuilding. The timber used for these rebuilds was iroko , which is a cheaper version of the more traditional teak that was used in previous times. Iroko is not a good timber to work with as the grain 'runs' in every direction, especially if you are notching out with a chisel for hinges etc or planing by hand. There was no asbestos on these carriages, the Park Royal coaches were literally stuffed with controversial blue asbestos. The asbestos was removed  from each coach by contractors before work began on the Park Royal re- skinning , and interior re - fit programme 1981 / 83. 

[Noel]

OMG if RTR model versions of these ubiquitous classic CIE coaches ever got the IRM/AS treatment we'd be in for a treat supreme. Don't think any of the fab four are old enough though to have even seen them let alone traveled on them. Modern era Mk3 is probably their age groups nostalgia! Who knows perhaps one day in the future there will be folks looking back fondly on todays plastic ICRs and even RPSI specials to remind folk of the era before Hydrogen powered trains. When folks hark back to the diesel era. 071s may seem like steam engines, somebody may even dare to like remembering 201s.

 

PS: But they would run perfectly with the new IRM A class as well as the existing Murphy Models 141/181/121 class locos.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Noel

[lucas z]

Cool coaches look a bit like a mix of several features of the big 4 rolling stock of the uk, some GWR features but mixed in with LMS too. Underframe is similar to the 57ft underframe so common before 1948 nationailisation

[flange lubricator]

4 hours ago, exciecoachbuilder said:

Hi lads, 

I don't recall any insulation on those type of coaches. I remember that the body side panels were just a thin sheet of timber with an aluminium outer skin glued onto the thin timber panel, and a veneered panel on the inside. There was no framing as such on the sides, instead there was a timber pillar from the cant rail ( top rail) to the bottom side (bottom section) each side of the windows. The only framing that I can remember was around the toilet section, and the end gangway sections of the coach.Also, they were the only coaches that were ever referred to as ( by coachbuilders in Inchicore works anyway. ) laminates. The new sides were done in a cheaper ' hurried up' way of traditional coach building. The timber used for these rebuilds was iroko , which is a cheaper version of the more traditional teak that was used in previous times. Iroko is not a good timber to work with as the grain 'runs' in every direction, especially if you are notching out with a chisel for hinges etc or planing by hand. There was no asbestos on these carriages, the Park Royal coaches were literally stuffed with controversial blue asbestos. The asbestos was removed  from each coach by contractors before work began on the Park Royal re- skinning , and interior re - fit programme 1981 / 83. 

Fascinating insight exciecoachbuilder , in the mid eighties I  worked on some  Laminates with the RPSI and they had no insulation just as you describe , the Iroko was cheaper then other hard woods but also very durable to rot  , I think the internal partitions were possibly made of oak . The later bulit laminates 1497-1503 built 1964 may have had blue asbestos which led to their withdrawal and eventual disposal in a quarry in Co Antrim in the early 1980's.

1500TL coach  built 1964 next to the parcel van

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by flange lubricator

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, lucas z said:

Cool coaches look a bit like a mix of several features of the big 4 rolling stock of the uk, some GWR features but mixed in with LMS too. Underframe is similar to the 57ft underframe so common before 1948 nationailisation

The similarities would probably be coincidental, as Edgar Bredin and his team tended to start from scratch with everything. However - that's not to say that similarities didn't exist. In jhbSnrSnr's time, frequent forays were made by senior coach and loco people from Inchicore to Derby, and vice versa. Some of the technical innovations on the 800 class (I have to confess to having entirely forgotten which) were copied in designing the BR standard classes in the early 1950s.

The least technical, but most obvious "cross-pollination" of ideas, as far as Derby was concerned anyway, was the introduction in 1933 by the GSR of exactly the same carriage livery that the LMS had, lining and all! The only differences were the omission of the LMS crest and lettering "LMS", and the inclusion of  the GSR crest, and slightly larger door numbers. Like the NCC, much secondary stock didn't get any lining at all. Same maroon - dead easy for GSR modellers.

3 hours ago, exciecoachbuilder said:

I don't recall any insulation on those type of coaches. I remember that the body side panels were just a thin sheet of timber with an aluminium outer skin glued onto the thin timber panel, and a veneered panel on the inside. There was no framing as such on the sides, instead there was a timber pillar from the cant rail ( top rail) to the bottom side (bottom section) each side of the windows. The only framing that I can remember was around the toilet section, and the end gangway sections of the coach. Also, they were the only coaches that were ever referred to as ( by coachbuilders in Inchicore works anyway. ) laminates. The new sides were done in a cheaper ' hurried up' way of traditional coachbuilding. The timber used for these rebuilds was iroko , which is a cheaper version of the more traditional teak that was used in previous times. Iroko is not a good timber to work with as the grain 'runs' in every direction, especially if you are notching out with a chisel for hinges etc or planing by hand. There was no asbestos on these carriages, the Park Royal coaches were literally stuffed with controversial blue asbestos. The asbestos was removed  from each coach by contractors before work began on the Park Royal re- skinning , and interior re - fit programme 1981 / 83. 

Absolutely fascinating and invaluable information, exciecoachbuilder....

[Mayner]

On 2/24/2020 at 12:23 AM, exciecoachbuilder said:

Hi lads, 

I don't recall any insulation on those type of coaches. I remember that the body side panels were just a thin sheet of timber with an aluminium outer skin glued onto the thin timber panel, and a veneered panel on the inside

I always wondered if CIE managed to source a new supply of laminate panels for re-building the Laminate carriages in the late 70s-80s. I remember reading somewhere many years ago that the laminate panels were made up of an aluminium outer skin and insulated core and a plywood inner skin and thought asbestos insulation board (AIB) was a logical material for the insulated core. AIB contains brown asbestos which was not considered to be as hazardous as blue asbestos and its use was gradually phased from the late 80s. 

Laminate panel construction was a fairly novel way of speeding up carriage construction and it allowed CIE to introduce a large fleet of modern coaches within a 2-3 year timeframe. 

Its possible the 1964 carriages had timber frame construction as they had a similar upright end profile and panel cover slip detail to the 1953 coaches and 59 vans. The timber framing would have formed a nice cavity for sprayed blue asbestos insulation before fitting the interior veneer in what were intended to be state of the art coaches.

I did not realise that CIE re-skinned the Park Royal coaches during the early 1980s, the carriage builders got very good a re-building coaches during those cash strapped days between the completion of the assembly of the MK2D Supertrain coaches and the beginning of the MK3 building programme.

 

[flange lubricator]

In about 1980/81 the old loco shed  at Ballybrophy was being used as a location for the removal of asbestos from the park royals . 

[exciecoachbuilder]

11 hours ago, Mayner said:

I always wondered if CIE managed to source a new supply of laminate panels for re-building the Laminate carriages in the late 70s-80s. I remember reading somewhere many years ago that the laminate panels were made up of an aluminium outer skin and insulated core and a plywood inner skin and thought asbestos insulation board (AIB) was a logical material for the insulated core. AIB contains brown asbestos which was not considered to be as hazardous as blue asbestos and its use was gradually phased from the late 80s. 

Laminate panel construction was a fairly novel way of speeding up carriage construction and it allowed CIE to introduce a large fleet of modern coaches within a 2-3 year timeframe. 

Its possible the 1964 carriages had timber frame construction as they had a similar upright end profile and panel cover slip detail to the 1953 coaches and 59 vans. The timber framing would have formed a nice cavity for sprayed blue asbestos insulation before fitting the interior veneer in what were intended to be state of the art coaches.

I did not realise that CIE re-skinned the Park Royal coaches during the early 1980s, the carriage builders got very good a re-building coaches during those cash strapped days between the completion of the assembly of the MK2D Supertrain coaches and the beginning of the MK3 building programme.

 

Hi John, 

Yes the Park Royal programme initially was to re skin the coaches. But after stripping back one coach, the ' powers that be ' decided that the work would be too costly and time consuming. So they decided to fit the new steel panels over the existing old panels, much to the astonishment of the staff, especially the older generation coachbuilders. The original vestibule ends porthole windows or side lights as we called them  , were done away with, and the replacement was just a steel panel with no window. All the new panels both outside, and the timber panels on the inside were pop- riveted on. Pop rivets or blind rivets as they are known , were the order of the day. The Park Royal programme was not one of  the carriage shops finest moments, but these were the cash strapped days of C.I.E. 

Also John ,

Apart from the Park Royals, i really don't recall seeing  asbestos on the other types of coaches that i had worked on, and I worked on a lot of heavy repair / crash / casualty jobs over the years. I do remember fitting sheets of black or brown ? asbestos in the new half heating van / half passenger conversions that C.I.E were doing in mid / late 70's. The whole new framework and access doors to the new boiler section , had fibreglass insulation/ sound proof, then asbestos sheeting which was then all sheeted out with steel paneling, which was all screwed into place. Interesting times in Inchicore during the ' poverty' era...

 

[jhb171achill]

10 minutes ago, exciecoachbuilder said:

 

Apart from the Park Royals, i really don't recall seeing  asbestos on the other types of coaches that i had worked on, and I worked on a lot of heavy repair / crash / casualty jobs over the years. I do remember fitting sheets of black or brown ? asbestos in the new half heating van / half passenger conversions that C.I.E were doing in mid / late 70's. The whole new framework and access doors to the new boiler section , had fibreglass insulation/ sound proof, then asbestos sheeting which was then all sheeted out with steel paneling, which was all screwed into place. Interesting times in Inchicore during the ' poverty' era...

 

Indeed, very interesting info.

In my days restoring RPSI carriages, I never recall any with asbestos either. Locos had it of course, and in the days before health and safety was invented, it was just pulled off by hand and put in the bin!

[Irishrailwayman]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed, very interesting info.

In my days restoring RPSI carriages, I never recall any with asbestos either. Locos had it of course, and in the days before health and safety was invented, it was just pulled off by hand and put in the bin!

Probably worth noting that many a worker died of lung diseases from such practices! S&H was put in place for very good reasons.

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, Irishrailwayman said:

Probably worth noting that many a worker died of lung diseases from such practices! S&H was put in place for very good reasons.

Very true! And many another dangerous practices too.....

[exciecoachbuilder]

4 hours ago, Irishrailwayman said:

Probably worth noting that many a worker died of lung diseases from such practices! S&H was put in place for very good reasons.

Very true  irishrailwayman. I  will leave it at that.