"Woolwich" Livery record

[jhb171achill]

Can't find the post, but someone was asking the other day about whether "Woolwiches" were grey or green (or black).

From 1947, the green began to appear on main line locos and then tank engines used on Dublin suburban services. This included the GSR "Woolwiches".

However, something in the back of my mind suggested that I had seen pics of these in grey too in the 1950s, so I had a look at what photos are in the first half-dozen books that came to hand, and they are actually more of a mixture than I thought - in fact, more seem to be grey than green during the 1950s.

Of the last three in traffic, they all ended up black (or possibly very very dirty grey). Like most engines at the very end, they were allowed to get into an absolutely deplorably filthy state. I have omitted details from some photos, as it is plain impossible to tell what they are.

One green one appears to have a plain green tender, with neither lining or "flying snail".

What follows is a small table to give an indication. This is quite simply a list of photos that at various times show SOME (not all) of the class, and the livery noted is what they were in the year to which the relevant photo is dated. It is clear that some became green, but reverted to grey in the 1950s. A similar story is the case with the 400 class, by the way, too.

Anything black would have received this livery after 1956 - nothing was black before that.

Another thing that shows is that more did NOT have "snails" than HAD them.

No.	Year photographed	Livery	Last five in use withdrawal date
372	1947 1960	Green (reported in "Cuisle") Black or grey (No snail)	1960
373	1951 1955 1956	Green Looks to be grey Looks to be grey
376	1961	Black (No snail)	2nd LAST 1961
377	Mid 50s	Exceptionally dirty - no livery visible
378	1953 1959	Green Green
380	1953	Grey
382	1954	Grey (No snail)
383	1955	Grey
385	Mid 50s	Grey	384 & 385 1960
388	1956	Black	LAST 1962
393	1949 Mid 50s	Green Grey
395	1954	Grey (No snail)
396	1950 Late 50s	Green Green
397	1949	Green

Edited February 15, 2021 by jhb171achill

[Mike 84C]

Thanks for taking the time  to collate that table John. As this group gets bigger then info like that is essential.  Mind you finding the info again in the dim and distant future can be a challenge!  Be safe guys.

[jhb171achill]

Out of idle curiosity I did a similar search regarding the 400 class (plus 502!), and while this is a very small sample, it seems to follow the above pattern.

In order of years....

1948     502 green, 405 green.   Nos. 336 & 342 noted by J Macartney Robbins as "next in line" for green.

1954     409 very dirty grey, but running with a green tender off some other loco (NOT without precedent; I've seen evidence of this elsewhere).

1954     402 grey, also later in 1960.

1955     406 green, but absolutely filthy.

1958     407 grey.

1960     402 grey.

1960     401 either very dirty grey or black.

I saw a colour slide some years ago showing two of the species at Inchicore. One was either extremely dirty grey or black. The other was barely discernible green; not just filthy, but badly faded.

Now, here's an interesting thing. I had always assumed that engines painted green after 1947 more or less all kept this. But there is clear evidence that many reverted to grey; it is possible that some of the classes mentioned were never green at all.

Despite the advance of dieselisation after the AEC cars were introduced, and especially after the A, B101 and C class diesels appeared, and the resultant fact that more and more steam engines were cosmetically very much neglected, repaints were taking place through the 1950s, even as late (in Cork) as 1962, within the closing months of steam.

No. 802 "Macha" was twice repainted in the early 1950s - first into an experimental lighter green (the details of which have not survived) and then back again to normal CIE green. But as can be seen from the last 2 posts, some large engines, noted green in the late 1940s or early 50s, went back to being green or, after 1956, black in a few cases.

Such is how I am occupying my enforced confinement. Tomorrow I'll do a bit about the liveries of dining car tea bags.......!

Edited May 16, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Ironroad]

Hi, jhb171achill, that was my enquiry and the thread was “Bachmann Irish Train Set” in the “For Sale or Wanted Forum”. As I think I commented in my last post  in that thread we were getting out on a tangent but there is a link to instructions in that thread on converting the Bachmann N class loco to DCC  that  I think you were interested in. Here it is again http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/bachmannndccinstr.htm

Many many thanks for taking the trouble to investigate further the question of the liveries carried by the Irish K1 & K1a class Woolwich Moguls.

The reason for my question was to establish the authenticity of the liveries produced by Bachmann for Murphy Models and whether there were others that I might indulge in. So taking the data in table you’ve presented together with what has been said previously we can probably sum up as follows;

Originally all went into service in Grey and in some cases that Gray survived to at least 1956.

From about 1947 CIE started painting them Green, as produced by Bachmann/MM and maybe retained this to the end of their days but this is not certain. Some may reverted to Grey or even Black.

From 1956 some were painted black (presumably those with original grey livery that had not been painted green). The Bachmann/MM model of no. 383 in flat black is therefore probably correct

In the late 50’s one, was painted a gloss black with red lining and used on the Cork to Rosslare service. The Bachmann/MM model of this is numbered 388 but an earlier post noted this as being no. 384.

Beyond this Mike84c posted a picture of his weathered version of this model which was originally featured in a forum (A weathered Woolwich and a couple of vans) back in 2015. This appears to be in a green livery with red lining and to quote Mile 84c from June 2015;-

 I did base the loco on a couple of pictures in Irish Railways in colour 1947-1970 No 378 features twice but I think the dirty patches look black &light grey on the boiler&cab with brown below the running plate. A pal thinks its brown! colour is in the eye of the beholder!!!

So is this a variant of the green livery?  

All in all from a modeling perspective there is probably sufficient license to run Grey, Green and Black together.

Other points of interest established in these threads:

Originally these locomotives had a flat smoke box door and over time these were replaced with the GSR dished style door some with and some without a wheel handle. It is unlikely that any of the original flat doors survived into the 1950’s.  The smokebox door on the Bachmann/MM model is the flat type and those of us who are more particular may want to replace it.  In the earlier forum minister_for_hardship posted the following pictures of all three door variations and one of these shows no 383 with a dished door and wheel.

 

For those interested in making modifications Mike 84c provided the following information.

Narrow Planet do the GSW cast number plates, I have used several and they are very good. Check the website.  Southeastern Finecast will sell a  white metal cast Wainwright  pattern dished smoke box  door and I think Andrew at 51L  has etchings for the circular GCR/LNW pattern smoke box door handles.

The Bachmann/MM model represents the K1 rather than the K1a given the K1a had larger driving wheels.  KI driving wheels were 5’6”, K1a driving wheels were 6’1”. KI’s were numbered 372-391 and Kia’s were numbered 393-398.  The number 392 was not assigned. The first one was built by the MGWR and was assigned number 375 by the GSR; this locomotive was involved in the fatal crash in Cahir in 1955.

One thing I’ve noticed from photographs is that unlike the British N class the Irish K1 class does not appear to have steps to the footplate fitted at the front (behind the buffer beam). These were not fitted to the model as presumably they may present a problem on tight curves but were included in the accessory pack.

This posting is in part an attempt to summarise some information on this website that is pertinent to these locos but is by no means comprehensive. There is a mine of information on all manner of Irish Railway stuff buried in this website, is anyone brave enough to collate it? As Mike 84c observed;

 Mind you finding the info again in the dim and distant future can be a challenge! 

[minister_for_hardship]

If anyone was interested in running a Woolwich in oil burning form, the following were converted.

372/4-9, 382, 386-91 (381 & 385 converted but never ran as oil burners)

Edited March 24, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[Midland Man]

Thanks minister for hardship

did any of the locos have not cie logo?

[jhb171achill]

19 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

Thanks minister for hardship

did any of the locos have not cie logo?

No logos were ever on locomotives, as such, only on SOME tenders. (Thus, no tank engines ever had "flying snails"). The official liveries were grey, with "flying snail" on tender, lined green with same, or (last few years, and a few engines only), black with snail. The snail was always "eau-de-nil" light green, lined gold. If you mean the CIE "broken wheel" logo, no, no steam engines ever got that. However, many tenders in all three colours were also to be seen with no logo or any markings of any kind.

2 hours ago, Ironroad said:

................. appears to be in a green livery with red lining..............................

All in all from a modeling perspective there is probably sufficient license to run Grey, Green and Black together

 

 

However........... very often, tenders were repainted without a "flying snail". The last two steam engines to be actually newly repainted (in grey) were in 1962, just as the "broken wheel" was being invented, but thay had nothing on their tenders. In the grey livery in the '50s, I would hazard a rough guess that maybe a quarter of locos had no flying snail on them at all, whereas with the green livery, just an occasional tender had no snail.

I have seen at least two photographs of green tenders that appear to have no lining, though that could be dirt.

There was never any livery variant with anything brown, nor red lining on a green background.

Grey, green and black did run together but only 1956-62. Prior to that, grey and green only. It is also worth pointing out that according to Bob Clements, "overall, only a few engines were repainted black". Many classes, thus, did not have any black examples; indeed, most of them.

Your summary is much more concise than my efforts!

Edited March 24, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Mike 84C]

Ironroad , that is a brilliant summary thank you . My weathered K is lined black and white, I think my heavy weathering deceives the eye? and I took a lot off before I was happy with it! Looking at the pictures again I realise that I have not fitted the snifting valves on the footplate or smokebox front , nor injectors and associated steampipes and I have tablet catchers, so lots to do yet! Pretty dumb as all the parts are sat in a drawer.

  Southeastern Finecast  are a very helpful firm and will supply lots of the detail parts we need in whitemetal. I am just a very satisfied customer.     

           Mick

[jhb171achill]

I've two "Woolwiches".... one, I think. I will repaint grey and weather it.

The other, I'll leave green and very heavily weather, which raises a question: I saw a model one time of a British class "08" shunter. It was meant to be weathered really heavily, over paintwork which even if clean was already badly worn. The model was based on photos of a prototype.

Looking at the real thing in photos, the BR blue paint was very badly faded (I think it had been sold into industrial use) and on top of that the thing was absolutely filthy - really badly neglected. But the modeller had got a PRISTINE Hornby or Bachmann straight-outta-the-box blue 08. He had applied some colouring technique before he started weathering it to make the paintwork look badly faded, a weak, insipid, greyish pale-ish blue. THEN he had started weathering it. The result was quite simply one of the most realistic weathering jobs I've ever seen.

Does anyone know how this is achieved? The "Woolwiches" which remained in green into the late 50s, show this degree of neglected fading, barely visible under perhaps five undisturbed years of gunge. The patches of green visible look really worn and faded themselves.

[murrayec]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Does anyone know how this is achieved? The "Woolwiches" which remained in green into the late 50s, show this degree of neglected fading, barely visible under perhaps five undisturbed years of gunge. The patches of green visible look really worn and faded themselves.

@jhb171achill It's generally done with paint, you may be referring to a guy that did an 08 on the Gauge O Guild fb site? if it is that one- it was all done with paint, he painted the body with white undercoat, then highlighted stuff with black and brown, then he painted the blue in a few lighter shades than if new! then he highlighted again, painted a lighter blue again and then used weathering wash.

If the green Woolwiches are lined your best option is just to weather on top, otherwise if you try to fade the paint the lining will be lost! maybe you don't mind that- leave the model in the sunlight and over time it should fade- do remember to rotate it! and not to hot a place in the sun- it might melt!

Eoin

[jhb171achill]

19 minutes ago, murrayec said:

@jhb171achill It's generally done with paint, you may be referring to a guy that did an 08 on the Gauge O Guild fb site? if it is that one- it was all done with paint, he painted the body with white undercoat, then highlighted stuff with black and brown, then he painted the blue in a few lighter shades than if new! then he highlighted again, painted a lighter blue again and then used weathering wash.

If the green Woolwiches are lined your best option is just to weather on top, otherwise if you try to fade the paint the lining will be lost! maybe you don't mind that- leave the model in the sunlight and over time it should fade- do remember to rotate it! and not to hot a place in the sun- it might melt!

Eoin

Yes, I would just "weather" over the lining, after all, that's what happened the real thing.

I was shown a picture of a UTA loco once - probably a Jeep - and I was told that it proved that SOME UTA jeeps had no lining.  I insisted that all had, always; there wasn't a solitary exception, to no avail.

Later, I found another pic of the same loco, the same year, with lining discernible, albeit on an absolutely FILTHY loco! Occasionally, lining just isn't visible on a dirty locomotive - but it's there!

Yes, the 08 you mention was indeed the one - I think there was an article about it in one of the "comics" - excellent job.

[WRENNEIRE]

When PMurphy did his research for the Woolwiches there was just the one gloss black with red lining, LMS style, found in Limerick

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, WRENNEIRE said:

When PMurphy did his research for the Woolwiches there was just the one gloss black with red lining, LMS style, found in Limerick

Correct. It was the only CIE loco ever painted any way other than the normal liveries.

It had red lining similar to what at one stage the GSWR had used, and it was done to that one loco specifically for the Cork - Rosslare service. It didn't last long, as the B101s took over in 1955/6.

[DSERetc]

Has anyone ever reviewed or commented on the Bassett Lowke  Gauge O Irish Woolwich 2-6-0?

[jhb171achill]

In relation to the painting of things green, I found the following.

First, a letter to Senior from J Macartney Robbins detailing some livery aspects, and secondly a letter published in “Cuisle” in 1947 from an obvious enthusiast - being very much a case of “plus ca change”....

 

23 minutes ago, DSERetc said:

Has anyone ever reviewed or commented on the Bassett Lowke  Gauge O Irish Woolwich 2-6-0?

Were they actually made by Bassett Lowke or was this just a “headline” name?

I’m unaware of any reviews of them, but a very fine looking beast.

[Midland Man]

Looks like a limited edition one. Possibly pricy for us normal people. Some of those engines got for €1000s.

stay safe 

MM

[Galteemore]

They are faux B-L - made by Corgi’s parent company a few years ago IIRC.

[jhb171achill]

I have updated the tables I did at the start of this thread with relevant info gleaned from the above.

[WRENNEIRE]

A little bit about it here, scroll down to the middle of the page