CIE Locomotive Grey specification

[jhb171achill]

It's BS18 BS29 Raven, I'm reliably informed.

This is what is on 186 currently, and when painted this way all eye witnesses who saw her, and who remembered the original, agreed that it looked correct.

[Glenderg]

They are British Standard codes, for "Method for tensile testing of metals", and a "Specification for carbon steel forgings above 150 mm ruling section"...

18 B 29 is the colour code, from the BS 4800/5252 Colour Range, and is described as "Raven". Where is she now, would love to throw the RAL cards up against her to get a number. 

[jhb171achill]

She's in Whitehead museum. Available to visit at any time (well, during the odd hours the place is actually open to the public!)....

Sorry, excuse my ignorance, but that's the way it was described to me! 😃

[popeye]

I took some pictures a while back.

Here are two that show the grey colour.

 

[jhb171achill]

Excellent.... and if you look at the wheels in the lower pic, you can see what it looks like when oily.

The upper pic shows a rare thing - what it looked like when clean in working days!

Note the smokebox. It looks much darker, and it is - but this is far from prototypical.  The RPSI correctly painted it grey like the rest of the loco, but because some volunteers simply thought it "didn't look right" (always a fatal mistake in historical accuracy in preservation), they "allowed" it to darken through not polishing it clean.

[popeye]

I was going to ask about the smoke box colour but that answers that.

 

 

[Mayner]

A smoke box will weather differently to the boiler and smoke box cladding as its exposed to direct heat from the smoke from the fire and exhaust steam. So a rusty or burnt smoke box was quite prototypical on a hard worked loco.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mayner said:

A smoke box will weather differently to the boiler and smoke box cladding as its exposed to direct heat from the smoke from the fire and exhaust steam. So a rusty or burnt smoke box was quite prototypical on a hard worked loco.

'Tis true indeed, prototypically, but in this case the contrast is too great; the rest of the loco looks to clean to match the way the smokebox is.

[FiveFootThree]

Pretty sure the smokebox on 186 is just painted with matt black high-temperature paint.  Same as all the other Whitehead locos.

I have a RAL swatch book, I'll try and see if I can get a match sometime, though it's difficult as the paint weathers and stains from cleaning (usually the dye in red diesel sometimes used as a degreaser at WDX stains the paint a little).

Edited July 17, 2018 by FiveFootThree

[murrayec]

Hi Guys

A chap on here in the J10 thread advised to use Humbrol 27 'Matt Sea Grey'

Eoin

[jhb171achill]

23 hours ago, FiveFootThree said:

Pretty sure the smokebox on 186 is just painted with matt black high-temperature paint.  Same as all the other Whitehead locos.

I have a RAL swatch book, I'll try and see if I can get a match sometime, though it's difficult as the paint weathers and stains from cleaning (usually the dye in red diesel sometimes used as a degreaser at WDX stains the paint a little).

That's possible, Fivefootthree, and I had wondered myself. When the loco was painted grey at Whitehead some 15 years or so ago, it was correctly painted grey all over. Subsequently, on enquiring why the chimney and smaller kebox looked darker, I was told that since the Whitehead folk thought a grey chimney looked "odd"*, they had allowed it to get darker by not leaning it, whereas they DID clean the rest of the loco.

I would be disappointed to hear that it had actually been repainted black, as this is categorically incorrect. Irish preservation, unlike the U.K. or beyond,  has an unfortunate history of livery inaccuracy, with virtually every preserved coach or wagon, across the RPSI, DCDR and Cultra, in wrong liveries. There are a number of reasons for that; as a one-time carriage restoration volunteer in the RPSI, I can confirm. 

Comparing 186 with other locos would not be relevant;  it's a different livery - indeed, the plain grey is the livery of the vast majority of steam engines. Between the mid 1910s and the early 1960s - half a century almost, grey locos on the island of Ireland outnumbered all the others by about 3 to 1.

186 should be all grey. So should 184 and 461, as these locos were this colour throughout their lives in their current state (though one photo strongly suggests 461 as one of the small number which got a coat of black in its final few years). In current form, 184/6 were entirely grey always.

Lovely model above, Eoin - grey possibly slightly light - however - while the grey used, like all livery colours, remained pretty standard, jhbSenior recalled seeing a J15 or possibly J18 (I can't remember which he told me), being shunted out of the paint shop at Inchicore in a lighter grey, same shade as wagons. Also, when brand new, the loco grey tended to look lighter though it didn't stay that way long!  So your model is in "ex-works" condition.

Hope this is helpful.

Incidentally, Eoin, where did you get those buffer beam numerals? They are absolutely perfect!

[murrayec]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Incidentally, Eoin, where did you get those buffer beam numerals? They are absolutely perfect!

Hi jhb

Their from Des in SSM

In fairness to the chap who recommended Humbrol 27 said it was the starting point he would then weather & dirty it up. We plan to do the same to the J10..... I have been practising;-

Eoin

Edited July 18, 2018 by murrayec

[GSR 800]

2 hours ago, murrayec said:

Hi jhb

Their from Des in SSM

In fairness to the chap who recommended Humbrol 27 said it was the starting point he would then weather & dirty it up. We plan to do the same to the J10..... I have been practising;-

Eoin

That is a lovely little model

[jhb171achill]

Superb weathering!

[jhb171achill]

Finally - a correct paint match for GSR / CIE locomotive grey

Thanks mainly to Roderick of 00 Works, I think we can now be sure of the closest match to what as far as I am aware, is the only surviving original sample (from about 1925 or so) of the loco grey introduced by the GSWR about 1915/8 and continued through GSR days and into CIE, right to the end of steam days in 1963. A remarkable 45 years in use, more or less equalled by CIE's various variations or orange and black 1962-2006.

The model, as many will know, was built in early GSR days (and is "0" coarse scale). The paint on it is original. 

Roderick sent me numerous samples of greys blended from this and that. The piece of plastic seen here against the model has been sprayed with what seems the closest match, and as you can see, it matches in daylight, artificial light, and half-and-half.

Presumably Roderick will now be in a position to sell this paint to anyone who wants to paint a GSR / CIE model.

Naturally, upside-down reproduction of images is a necessity.....!

I understand that this will be used as a model for the eagerly-awaited RTR J15. 

I have been trying to find, for ages, the list I got from Bob Clements years and years ago of what classes of locomotive received all-black paint in the 1955-62 period. I just can't find it! Most remained grey, as we all know, but some got lined green or black.

[popeye]

That looks good, can't wait to see the finished loco. 

[jhb171achill]

Roderick of 00 Works tells me that Precision Paints now sell correct loco grey, but be careful: what they call locomotive grey is, I believe, the (light) shade used on 071s these days.

For steam loco standard grey, ask them for the more long-winded "GSWR / GSR / CIE Locomotive Grey".

[Andy Cundick]

Looks like Humbrol 27 to me,all my GSR locos use it with degrees of weathering.Andy.

[jhb171achill]

I happen to have a small tin of Revell 78 in front of me right now, which is close enough too.

The weathering, of course, shows greys up darker; I have a SSM J15 which is (deliberately) heavily weathered. It looks almost black, though it has to be said that the initial grey used was too dark,

[Noel]

Nice find. Wonder what the equivalent Acrylic colour is.  Enamels being solvent/cellulose based are a no-no for me airbrushing in a domestic environment. 

[KMCE]

My preference is for the Acrylics also, specifically Vallejo Model Air

 

Humbrol 27 - Vallejo Model Air 71.047 Grey

Revell 78 - Vallejo Model Air 71.048 Engine Grey

 

I am proposing to use Vallejo Model Air 71.110 Dark Grey as a base with drops of white mixed in for highlights for my locos.

 

Hope that helps

Ken

[jhb171achill]

I'm very impressed by the colour matching and scientific approach to paint composition and so on, as practiced by the likes of Precision Paints (or Phoenix) and others. In terms of acrylic equivalents, I would contact them probably - certainly, I would be well out of my depth in trying advise on this.

I've just been onto Phoenix / Precision with a string of queries, and while I await their reply, I know that I have been very satisfied with their service in the past.

Incidentally, if anyone wants that bit of plastic I show above in a photo of the old O gauge tender, you're welcome to have it - I can post it. Or maybe I'll bring it to the bank holiday weekend show in Raheny and leave it with one of the gentlemen at the ECM Trains or IRM stand.