Mol_PMB

Having mentioned Northern Ireland Trailers a few post back, one of the companies merged into P&O / Pandoro about 50 years ago, I was amazed to stumble upon this yesterday: These 1960s alloy containers were prone to accidental damage and were quickly replaced with more robust steel boxes, but the alloy ones don’t corrode and have ultimately outlasted the early steel containers.

Here’s a Swilly example, lower number here used at a later date. The RCH practice was that each registering railway had its own series. A wagon only had to be registered by one railway to run on any railway. With tank wagons, grain and Guinness wagons, the fair number of PO coal wagons north of the border, I don’t think 200 is impossible. They might not have existed all at once

I would expect them to have had GSR plates. I wonder if the GSR register of PO wagons survives somewhere - they were all given a registration number. On the GNR(I) plate shown above, the registration number is 196 which indicates that there were at least 196 PO wagons registered by the GNR(I) by 1922.

Here's a link to a drawing of the RCH PO wagon registration plate - a very standardised and (in GB) legally required feature on PO wagons:

I don’t think any were repainted in this way. The GSR ones were repainted to CIE but the Ranks ones stayed in Ranks livery until the end.

Old thread, I know, but I'm interested because I'm currently working on a model. This is a still from an IRRS video clip dated 1975, showing both a Ranks liveried one and a CIE brown one. My part-finished model is currently in grey but I'm tempted by the brown option! I think this IRRS photo shows the same two wagons: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511551080/ On the question of ownership, this IRRS photo of a Ranks wagon, look closely at the solebar just to the right of the ladder. That plate shaped like a London Underground sign is a Railway Clearing House private owner wagon registration plate. That proves it's not a GSR/CIE wagon but genuinely a private owner. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435707 The RCH plate is also visible on this image linked from another thread. Incidentally, note the ex-GNR grain hopper van on the left. This is a black and white photo showing two freshly painted in Ranks livery at Inchicore in the 1950s. Your guess is as good as mine on the livery, but the underframe looks darker than the body: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509298965 Finally, on the left hand side of this image are a pair of GSR-liveried ones with a nice overhead view, if a little distant: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509038168 I'm beginning to wonder if I should have bought more than one kit...

Here's a shot of one of these from above, showing the roof detail, in the IRRS Flickr archive: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443526

Another pre-ISO container example, from Brian Flannigan on Flickr. From 1952 until 1960 the CIE statistics list 6 milk tank containers. In 1961 these seem to have been repurposed to glucose tanks, and I think that's what we're looking at here. (I'm aware there were later, ISO-compatible glucose tank containers as well). The road division also had some demountable tar tanks but this doesn't look black enough to be a tar tank. It's also a very nice illustration of one of the 25201 series flat wagons. These were the first 20' long 4-wheel flats and were built in 1962 to carry the larger pre-ISO containers described in the previous few posts. Although vac fitted, they were only rated for a 12t payload and were quickly superseded by the 25436 series which could carry 20t. Edit: these also appear in the background of this IRRS photo at Crossmolina siding, Ballina: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508956685 On reflection, they may well be privately owned tanks (no CIE logos etc) so I might be making a mistake in trying to correlate them with the CIE listing. A couple of IRRS photos dating from 1966 show another of the 25201 series flats, loaded with what might be an 'open brick' container, a 3-plank wooden dropside. On the other hand, CIE might have considered this under the 'Lancashire Flat' umbrella: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508466241 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508783939

Oh, well spotted! The photo on page 90 of the book shows a rake of three in the foreground, of which the nearest one has no side doors. Looking again at the image used by IRM, one of these is the same. The brown one, just to the left of the GSR grain hopper, is the variety with no doors: I wonder whether the ones originally built as grain vans lacked the doors, while those converted from H vans retained their doors? The other variant was the brakes. As with the other wagons on the triangulated chassis, a small proportion of them had 4-shoe brakes (hand operated, not vac-fitted) which were outboard of the wheels. One of these has the different brakes: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499079254

I forgot something. Here are my photos of the surviving container at Dromod, showing both ends and the accessible side. This is the 1962 type, non-insulated: And from another thread on here, Wrenneire's photo of one which certainly survived into the late 1980s but perhaps much more recently. This is the best view I've seen of the side of a 1965 side door type: I'd imagine either type would be fairly straightforward to do as a 3D print, though I say this as someone who doesn't really know what's involved. Carrying a range of liveries and good for the 1960s and 1970s periods they might be popular.

Well, I have made a ladder. I suppose I could have ordered an etched one but it wouldn't turn up for a week or more. I think it's an improvement? Just trial-fitted at this stage, I should be able to straighten it a fraction on final fit. It looks like the body still needs a bit more fettling too, but it's nearly there. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508956685 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435707 I'm still hoping I can pick up a couple of the IRM grain vans to go with it, but we'll see.

Progress on several fronts over the last couple of days, as well as writing my diatribe on early containers. The container flat from Leslie is now in red primer and looking the part. Still needs a topcoat, lettering and weathering, but I'll wait until I've done the other one. The Bell container on it now has a petunia purple roof which is a much better colour match than it looks in this photo. I know the roofs could be purple, blue or white, but I wanted a purple one. Then I've been working on a couple of Mayner's 3D prints as well. These are very nicely done, much better than many I've worked with in the past, but they still benefit from a bit of cleaning up and detailing. The LMA van was easy, and has got as far as the transfers. This needs some careful weathering to reproduce the prototype. The GSR grain hopper took a little more work to remove all traces of the 3D print layers, but I'm hoping that the next spray of paint will prove I'm there, and then that can have some transfers too. I also need to solder up a ladder for it, and use transfers to reinstate the lost rows of rivets on the edge of the roof. The GNR brake van was painted in 'rust and unpainted wood' finish, and then a thinned coat of pale grey was sprayed over the top. Now I'm using various tools to remove a lot of that top coat, and expose the rust and wood underneath. There's a way to go yet but this corner is looking suitably bedraggled. In due course I need to do some transfer artwork for this and a few other wagons.

As we move towards the second half of the 1960s, the 1966 CIE annual report notes that the road freight division introduced 40 new containers, and also contains this illustration. This is the side-door type we behind an NCC mogul previously. The slightly odd thing is that the number of large covered containers reported in the rail division's assets increased by exactly 40, but the road freight division's total barely changed. As might be expected with a truly intermodal asset, there seems to have been a lack of clarity about whether these were road or rail assets. Incidentally these pre-ISO alloy containers also appear in photos of ships. The 1967 report described the developments over the previous year, which included more significant developments. Nearly 200 new flat wagons (in the 25436 series) had been constructed, suitable for 20' containers with a 20t payload. 150 'Lancashire flats' were introduced (some as road assets, some as rail, again not entirely consistent between sources) as well as a further 30 containers and 6 new bulk glucose tanks. New gantry cranes were installed at many stations and the road freight fleet was strengthened with more tractor and trailer units. The Irish Ferryways partnership was begun, and some of the first ISO containers (IF assets not CIE) were shown in the report: More Lancashire Flats would be added over the next few years, until there were over 500 of them. Traditionally a Lancashire Flat was a flatbed body with framing underneath so that it was self-supporting, usually with a headboard at one end, a couple of feet high. We've seen them earlier in this thread, I'll repeat this lovely photo of a B+I container service where you can see stacks of empty Lancashire Flats - red ones are Containerway, Orange are Irish Ferryways, blue are Link Line, yellow may be Northern Ireland Trailers. Also a CIE container of the pre-ISO ribbed alloy type, and CIE ISO insulated examples too: CIE seem to have used the term Lancashire Flat to describe a variety of different flat or low-sided containers used for all sorts of purposes: Guinness, fertliser, etc. The 1968 annual report was big on containers (and there's another pre-ISO type here that I hadn't seen before: The stage was set for the introduction of CIE's first ISO containers of their own, but that's a story for another day...

Many of these alloy pre-ISO containers survived to be painted in orange, and although branded for the road division they were commonly seen on trains too. The IRRS photo archive has a good selection of photos of orange ones, but they're harder to find in the public domain. You'll need to join the IRRS if you haven't already! Here's non-insulated container VA-62 in orange, with black lettering and roundels: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511632554 A partial but close-up view of VA-35, again non-insulated. I think they had 3 door hinges whereas the insulated versions had 4 hinges. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511350441 Here's one in a train, with an older, shorter type of container also visible behind: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570643358 Two in the siding at Lisburn in this Jonathan Allen photo: A series of four photos at North Esk in 1975, showing one of each of the two main types. On the trailer is the insulated type with shallow-curved roof., whilst alongside it on the ground is the other type with the smaller radius roof: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510231502 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511775805 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527761305 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527761270 The dimensions given in Jane's indicate that the insulated ones were 9" taller than the others, which looks plausible in these images. Finally for the early 1960s pre-ISO boxes, here's a view dated 1986 with four of them lined up at North Wall. One alloy with black block logo, two orange with roundel, one blue. CIE used blue on some wagons and containers (and even one Mk2 coach) in the early 1970s, and it looks as if at least one of these containers was treated to the same scheme: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509178353

As we have already seen, both the rail and road divisions increased their stock of large covered containers in 1961/62, and the development of an improved type of container was notable enough to warrant a photo in the 1962 annual report: These containers appear to be of alloy construction, with distinctive external channel ribs. The brackets on the roof might be there to enable the containers to be stacked, though I would imagine that they could only be stacked when empty. Although of similar cross-section to the older types, they appear to be longer. The CIE container fleetlists in Jane's describe pre-ISO dry cargo containers with dimensions of 18'9" x 7'6" x 7'6", and pre-ISO insulated containers 19' x 7'9" x 8'3", which may describe these containers. The length of around 19' would have been too long to fit on or in a traditional Irish goods wagon, but the 25201 series flats were also introduced in 1962 with a length of 20', and would have been suitable. It's worth noting that these containers are branded 'CIE ROAD FREIGHT SERVICES' and so were presumably part of the road assets rather than the railway assets. I'm going to digress a bit into CIE logos. We all know about the snail and the roundel, but there was actually an intermediate phase in the early 1960s. Looking at the annual reports, the snail reigns in the 1950s, but from 1960 to 1963 the branding style on the report is white C.I.E. on a dark block background, as seen on the containers in these photos. From 1964, the roundel appears on the annual reports and there is a brief note that may refer to its introduction in December 1963. Although the black and tan livery was introduced in 1962, the early repaints didn't have any roundels; nor did the first locos painted in the all-black livery. I don't think the roundel was introduced on the loco livery until about 1964. This photo from Pat Kirwan on Flickr must be from about the same date, and shows these containers in colour: The photo above shows that there were at least two different types of these containers - note the curvature of the roof and the shape of the reinforcing ribs which are different on these two types. The Jane's listing includes both dry box and insulated variants, so that may be the reason for the two different designs. The photos suggest that the type with the large radius roof was insulated, and the more sharply-curved roof was the dry box type. The 'ROAD FREIGHT SERVICES' lettering is just visible on the left-hand contanier and appears to be in orange. Ernie's collection on Flickr has a nice photo of one of these in an earlier variant of the scheme. This is the type with the gently curved roof (right hand side of the photo above). The 'ROAD FREIGHT SERVICES' lettering is green, but looking through the loco cab windows we can just make out the white C.I.E. lettering on a black block. I think I can also see the letters 'IN' on the side, which might be the start of 'INSULATED'. The container is on a 25436 series flat wagon, and it's not quite the full 20' length, which would be consistent with the dimension quoted in Jane's of 19': This photo in the IRRS archive dated 1971 shows the same type of container on the same type of wagon. This time all the lettering is in orange, including an orange roundel instead of the black block, and it reads 'ROAD FREIGHT SERVICES INSULATED CONTAINER': https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570450071 These containers in unpainted alloy livery also crop up in the background of other photos, such as this one from Ernie: Also this one from Jonathan Allen (spotting these can be a bit like "Where's Wally?"! Another from Jonathan Allen, and a rare view of a 23201 series flat wagon: The road division assets in the early 1960s also included a dozen grain containers, and this photo shows that they were of similar design and livery, with 'BULK GRAIN' branding: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511551075 There was also another variant, with side doors, which can be seen in this 1965 photo from Ernie. Similar white C.I.E. lettering on a black block, probably some other lettering underneath but I can't make it out:

Lurking in the background of Ernie's photo at Broadstone in 1960 are a selection of traditional CIE wooden-bodied containers with snail branding: Again one of Ernie's photos, this time at Mallow in 1966, the first 4 wagons are all carrying containers. Three have sheets over them which may indicate a leaky roof or a water-sensitive cargo. They appear to be CIE containers. The fourth container may be a privately-owned example, I can half-read a company name on the end: There are lots of photos in the IRRS Flickr archive (only visible to members), which are linked below. A snail-branded large wooden example in the 1950s: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53500993248 In the 1940s, a County Donegal open container. I've included this as an illustration of what the 'Open Brick' containers might have looked like: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509032848 Several 1959 photos of 'Small Covered' containers formerly owned by the GNR and inherited by CIE: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511437118 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511437123 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511582084 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511613489 A different design of small container, which appears to be alloy sheeted, with snail branding: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511703975 Alloy-sheeted 'Large Covered' types, still in use in 1968-1970: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570648873 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511639484 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53498764321 The blue one here may be a BR insulated container, but the grey one in the wagon is probably CIE: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53449503188

For the CIE container fleet, another source of information is the annual reports, which are online here: https://www.cie.ie/en-ie/Who-we-are/History-of-CIE/Historical-Reports Each year, these list CIE's assets which include containers (and of course railway rolling stock, road vehicles, etc). For containers, the data is generally quite comprehensive but there are some complications: The Rail and Road divisions list their containers entirely separately from each other, and use different classifications/descriptions of the container types The category boundaries can be blurred, for example is an insulated ISO container included in the 'ISO' category or the 'large covered insulated' category? The reporting format changes dramatically between 1973 and 1974, making it difficult to track trends. Let's start by taking a look at the rail division, 1951-1973: In 1951 the railway part of CIE did not declare any container assets, but this may have been an omission rather than an indication that there weren't any. From 1952 to 1961, the situation was fairly stable, with around 200 containers in total. Broadly speaking, these comprised roughly: about 30 'Large covered' - probably equivalent to a British Rail 'B' or 'BD' about 30 'Small covered' - probably equivalent to a British Rail 'A' up to 75 'Insulated' - perhaps equivalent to a British Rail 'AF'? about 100 'Open brick' - perhaps equivalent to a British Rail 'D' a handful of specialist containers for furniture, bicycles, and 6 milk tanks The GNR was a significant user of containers, and many of theirs came into CIE ownership after dissolution of the GNR(B) in 1958, but this isn't obviously reflected in the statistics quoted in the annual reports. The accounting of GNR(I) / GNR(B) assets in the 1950s isn't my specialist subject! In 1961, the Insulated containers disappeared from the Railway assets, but some new types were introduced: about 75 Greyhound/Dog kennel containers about 60 more 'Large covered' were added the 6 milk tanks were deleted and 6 glucose tanks were added - possibly the same tanks re-purposed? This situation continued until 1965, but before going beyond that date it may be useful to look at the CIE road division container fleet, shown in this graph: From the first report in 1951, the road division had around 100 Furniture containers, later reclassified as Merchandise. They also had a growing fleet of Livestock containers. A handful of alcohol, grain and tar containers soon joined the fleet. In 1957, 50 Meat containers joined the road fleet, at the same time as the railway fleet of Insulated containers was reduced from 75 to 25. This probably represents a transfer of assets between divisions. The figures suggest that the remainder were transferred in 1962/63. A small group of Cement containers were introduced in 1959-1961. The road fleet of Furniture/Merchandise containers was signficantly increased in 1961/2, followed by the addition of more new Meat/Insulated containers. The fleet then remained fairly constant through the 1960s although the livestock containers decreased in number. All the containers discussed so far in this post were pre-ISO types, because the ISO regulations were not published until the mid-1960s. Before moving on to the late 1960s, I'll add a few photos of these pre-ISO containers in the next posts.

In 1982, both Bell and B+I were still going, and provided detailed entries for Jane's including container fleet listings. 40' containers were becoming more numerous but far from dominant at this date: P&O's subsidiaries were listed together under the owning company's heading: Ellerman Lines had played a bit part in Dublin services for a while, and I've seen Ellerman Lines containers on trains in photos at North Wall, so I'd better include a bit of information on them here. Their main business was the Med and Gulf via Suez: Another shipping line that had been operating to Ireland for a decade or so on a fairly low-key basis was the France Ireland Line, sometimes known as the Holland Ireland Line, or indeed the France Holland Ireland Line! I don't know much about this firm or their containers, but they served both Waterford and Dublin:

Moving on to the early 1980s, and my last copy of Jane's Freight Containers is the 1982 edition. By this time there had been massive changes in the global container shipping scene, and Ireland was just a minnow in the grand scheme of things. There had also been a lot of mergers and acquisitions, and hundreds of 'fallen flags' in US parlance. Here's the Ireland section: By now, CIE had introduced their 'Uniload' 10' containers which were a pretty late development in the grand scheme of things. The hopper containers still merit inclusion as a curiosity. The side-door 20' boxes are pictured as something more typical. In the manufacturers section the new Acrylonitrile tanks merited attention, and the firm in Clones seems to be on a marketing offensive:

Possibly displaying an unhealthy fascination with Greenore Ferry Services (and I don't know if their containers ended up on trains in Ireland) here are four photos of their vessels with containers loaded. Looks like they were unpainted alloy with a yellow band around the middle: https://www.shipspotting.com/photos/1719326 https://www.shipspotting.com/photos/1774147 I wonder if any of these do appear on a train in photos from the 1970s?

I'll now take a quick look at the 1973-74 Jane's. Container shipping was evolving rapidly at this time, with smaller operators merging, being taken over, or simply failing to compete. The 'Republic of Ireland' section ran to 5 pages with the usual suspects: CIE's listing was a bit briefer than in previous years but did included an updated container fleet list (above). They were also advertising their road freight service to Europe: One of the container crane adverts included a nice photo at Dublin, featuring a variety of containers - Irish Ferryways and Containerway on the quayside while an anonymous Lancashire Flat is craned aboard the ship : I'm not sure who was operating the ship at the time, but here's a link to another photo of her on the Ships Nostalgia site at Garston in 1975, with plenty of Cawoods containers on board: Back to Jane's, and the B+I listing for this year wasn't very interesting for containers, but the Bell listing does give a useful fleet list; all their containers were 8'6" tall and the 20' dry cargo type was dominant: We can see the start of the merger period because the Coast Lines Group (which included Anglo-Irish, Northern Ireland Trailers, Link Line and others) is now part of the P&O group. Note the container fleet listing, some of ISO sizes and others not: On the subject of Northern Ireland Trailers as part of this group, there are some nice photos of their equipment on Flickr (click on photos to link back to the originals for more info on each): Something for the old truck lovers in there! Also some older photos at Preston of the Irish services with earlier container types:

Thinking about models, Arran does a 20'x8'6" undecorated drybox with vertical logo panels that is a pretty close match to those B+I IROPA boxes, could be a fairly easy job with all-over orange and a couple of panels of lettering. https://shop.c-rail-intermodal.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=72_73&product_id=159 CIE also had some boxes of this general type with the vertical logo panels: For the older B+I 20'x8' alloy types with quite widely-spaced ribs, I think there's scope to modify some of Arran's flush-sided ones of this type: https://shop.c-rail-intermodal.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=72_73&product_id=292 I'd rub down the sides to remove the rivets and then add thin plastic strip ribs. Because the livery is mostly in the coloured bands, these could be done as transfers in one piece for each side. Arran doesn't currently sell these 8' high boxes as kits or undecorated, I wonder if that's possible as it would make the conversion both easier and cheaper? Perhaps I will ask him after the Christmas hols... Incidentally I went searching in my stock of paints looking for something orange, and found a couple of decades-old jars, not just CIE orange but Bell purple too. I wonder if they are still usable?

One thing I missed when scanning the 1970-71 edition was that a few operators provided details of their container numbering schemes. Among them were entries for B+I and CIE. The B+I listing gives information on their pre-ISO numbering scheme for the early boxes and flats, as follows: In the same edition in the main part of the book, their fleet was listed as follows, which is almost consistent but of course doesn't give the actual number ranges: Looking at this wonderful 1971 image from Jonathan Allen on Flickr, the B+I line container on the wagon appears to be numbered UL 768, a 20x8x8 dry box. Note that these early B+I boxes had a blue stripe, and were lettered in white B+I LINE with the logo on a red square. This is distinct from the livery that came shortly afterwards, where the stripe was changed to red, the lettering to B+I FREIGHTWAY in a mix of white and blue: This photo from the NLI archives is also dated 1971 and shows both types together in a train; the first 4 containers are two of each type, and they are all the same height (8') although the red stripes are higher up the sides than the blue ones. The fifth container appears to be an ACT box, while the sixth is an 8'6" high open top and curtain sided 'tiltainer'. Beyond that I think are two 30' long boxes? https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307819 Another NLI photo shows some of the B+I 'tiltainers' with IROPA branding in 1973 (as mentioned before, IROPA was a B+I joint venture): https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307963 By 1979, the new B+I branding (as modelled by C=Rail) was making an appearance as shown in this photo in the IRRS Flickr archive: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511107541 However, there were still quite a few of the 'red stripe' livery boxes around, and plenty of the orange ones with a blue B+I / IROPA panel as shown in this photo by Wrenniere: I'm going down a rabbithole and getting ahead of myself with B+I. Back to the 1971 container fleet listing section and the other Irish entry which was for CIE: It starts off looking very promising and then just stops, mid-sentence, without giving any numbers or explanation of them. Not as helpful as it might be! Note that both ISO and pre-ISO containers are included in the listing, and the quantities of each are combined. The following year, the CIE container fleet listing is given as follows, categorised a bit more helpfully: I'll explore these some more in due course.

I think the Inchicore paintshop staff may have had one too many pints of Guinness at the Christmas party before spraying that one!

Merry Christmas - everyone needs an orange in their stocking! https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511632554 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570643358 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511775805 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510231502 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52074843633 There's a blue one here among the orange and alloy versions: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509178353