Mol_PMB

A few holiday snaps in case it is! They're not all the same... There was also a log wagon variant but I don't have any good photos of them.

Finally, there was a large batch of 60 wagons built in 1972, 25140-25199. By now the design had matured and these seem to have been identical to the 1970 batch, and they remained largely unmodified through their lives. The photo in the Doyle&Hirsch stockbook shows one of these when new, here's 25156, and note that the tank number is 156 matching the running number, so the tank numbering policy must have changed by 1972: For completeness we'll look again at the list of 10 items: W-irons: Plain triangular plates. Solebar reinforcements: rectangular plates welded to the front of the channel section about the W-irons provide extra strength. Solebar eyes: These are fitted to the front of the solebar reinforcement plates. Bufferbeam ends: These are longer than the first batch, they protrude beyond the buffers. Vacuum pipes: These are high, on an upstand above the bufferbeam. Braked end treadplate: A raised treadplate is provided. It has 6 fixing bolts each side (rather than the 5 bolts on the plates retro-fitted to the first batch). Other details at the plain end: Just the vacuum pipe. Tank number: matches the last 3 digits of the wagon number Handbrake: The hand lever arrangement is the standard type with a long lever reaching past the vee hanger to a link arrangement. Tank support brackets: They have vertical ends rather than the chamfered ends of the first batch. I've got loads of photos of this batch so will just pick a few views showing different angles; here are 25151, 25154, 25177 And the very last one, 25199: Note that many, but not all, of these have had their solebar reinforcement plates modified or replaced with the fishtail-ended variety. Otherwise they appear to be as-built except the livery.

The penultimate batch of bubbles was built in 1970, numbered 25120-25139. The IRRS has a photo of one of these newly built and only partially painted; it has tank number 80 so it would be wagon 25129: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570447106 Jonathan Allen comes up trumps again with this image on Flickr showing 25138 in 1976, by which time the number on the tank matched that on the wagon: As far as I can tell, these wagons were identical to the 1967 batch apart from the W-irons, which were a plain plate type slightly different in shape to the previous W. For completeness we'll look again at the list of 10 items: W-irons: Plain triangular plates. Solebar reinforcements: rectangular plates welded to the front of the channel section about the W-irons provide extra strength. Solebar eyes: These are fitted to the front of the solebar reinforcement plates. Bufferbeam ends: These are longer than the first batch, they protrude beyond the buffers. Vacuum pipes: These are high, on an upstand above the bufferbeam. Braked end treadplate: A raised treadplate is provided. It has 6 fixing bolts each side (rather than the 5 bolts on the plates retro-fitted to the first batch). Other details at the plain end: Just the vacuum pipe. Tank number: matches the last 3 digits of the wagon number Handbrake: The hand lever arrangement is the standard type with a long lever reaching past the vee hanger to a link arrangement. Tank support brackets: They have vertical ends rather than the chamfered ends of the first batch. Frustratingly, this batch of wagons seems to have evaded my camera in the early 2000s!

I made one of those decades ago! 6mm scale on 32mm track.

The next batch of bubbles was introduced in 1967, and this comprised 20 wagons numbered 25095-25099 and 25105-25119. I think these were built new with the final version of the brake gear, a long lever reaching past the vee hanger to a link arrangement. They also had a raised treadplate at the braked end of the wagon. I linked this wonderful 1970 photo from Jonathan Allen in an earlier post too, but I'll put it again here and talk through the different wagon types: Starting from the brake van end, the first bubble is a 1967 model, with the long brake lever reaching past the vee hanger, and you can also see the raised treadplate at the nearer end. The next two bubbles are the 1964 model, with handbrake wheels (above the solebar). Then there's a 1965 wagon, with the shorter, more angled brake lever. The clean one is another 1967 wagon, with the raised treadplate and long brake lever distinctive. Finally, just behind the loco is another 1965 wagon, bringing up a total of 2 of each type that existed in 1970. Here's an IRRS archive photo of 25098, newly overhauled at Limerick in ivory in 1986, which also shows the long brake lever and raised treadplate: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509328864/ Moving now to the more modern photos which are a bit clearer, here's 25114, 25098 and 25110. I think these remained basically unmodified from the as-built condition. We'll look again at the list of 10 items: W-irons: These are W-shaped rather than triangular plates. Solebar reinforcements: rectangular or fish-tail ended plates welded to the front of the channel section about the W-irons provide extra strength. Solebar eyes: These are fitted to the front of the solebar reinforcement plates. Bufferbeam ends: These are longer than the first batch, they protrude beyond the buffers. Vacuum pipes: These are high, on an upstand above the bufferbeam. Braked end treadplate: A raised treadplate is provided. It has 6 fixing bolts each side (rather than the 5 bolts on the plates retro-fitted to the first batch). Other details at the plain end: Just the vacuum pipe. Tank number: matches the last 3 digits of the wagon number Handbrake: The hand lever arrangement is the standard type with a long lever reaching past the vee hanger to a link arrangement. Tank support brackets: They have vertical ends rather than the chamfered ends of the first batch.

Also in 1965, there were 5 bubbles built numbered 25100-25104. I cannot explain why the numbers 25095-25099 were missed out, and this gap was filled in a couple of years later. 25100-25104 had the same tare weight as the other 1965-built wagons described in the previous post, and were probably similar originally. I have not yet found any older photos of these. However, here's my photo of 25100 in the early 2000s: We'll look again at the list of 10 items, in this case the differences from the other 1965 wagons in 2000s condition are highlighted in bold: W-irons: These are W-shaped rather than triangular plates. Solebar reinforcements: Vertical ribs above the W-irons. Solebar eyes: These aren't any. Bufferbeam ends: These are longer than the first batch, they protrude beyond the buffers. Vacuum pipes: These are high, on an upstand above the bufferbeam. Braked end treadplate: There isn't one. We can see the top of the frame channels. Other details at the plain end: Just the vacuum pipe. Tank number: 25100 carries '100'. Handbrake: The hand lever arrangement is the standard type with a long lever reaching past the vee hanger to a link arrangement. Tank support brackets: They have vertical ends rather than the chamfered ends of the first batch. The only difference from the other 1965 wagons is in the area of the solebar reinforcements and eyes, and in this respect the 25100 batch are more like the original 25050 batch. It is possible that the 1965 production started with 25100-104, and the 25070-25094 batch followed with the improved solebar design.

The first 20 bubbles built in 1964 were evidently reasonably successful, but the design could be improved. We've already seen how the brake arrangement was changed (twice) and the solebars were reinforced. So when the second batch of 25 wagons 25070-25094 were built the following year, there were differences. Once again we can thank the National Library of Ireland and James O'Dea for a nice photo of 25083 dating from 1967: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306704 We'll look again at the list of 10 items: W-irons: Just about visible in the photo above, but we'll see more clearly later, these are W-shaped rather than triangular plates. Solebar reinforcements: rectangular plates welded to the front of the channel section about the W-irons provide extra strength. Solebar eyes: These are fitted to the front of the solebar reinforcement plates. Bufferbeam ends: These are longer than the first batch, they protrude beyond the buffers. Vacuum pipes: These are high, on an upstand above the bufferbeam. Braked end treadplate: There isn't one. We can see the top of the frame channels. Other details at the plain end: Difficult to see in this view, but it seems to be just the vacuum pipe. Tank number: 25083 was the 34th cement bubble built (the series started at 25050), and its tank carries the number 34. Not 083! Handbrake: this is now a hand lever. However, it's not the later standard type - it has a Morton clutch on the vee hanger, rather than reaching past the vee hanger to a link arrangement. Tank support brackets: They have vertical ends rather than the chamfered ends of the first batch. The IRRS photo from 1966 that I linked in the previous post also features one of these second-batch wagons 25074, viewed from the other end: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508783939 Also in the IRRS archive is this view of 25078, freshly overhauled at Limerick in 1986. Apart from the new ivory livery and the tank number (strangely 078B), its condition is unchanged from the 1960s photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508119122/ This IRRS view shows 25086 in 1985, again as-built except livery and tank number: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511538110 Moving to the early 2000s and my own photos, here's the first of the batch 25070, and in the second photo 25086: We'll look again at the list of 10 items, again the modifications from original condition are shown in bold: W-irons: These are W-shaped rather than triangular plates. Solebar reinforcements: The rectangular plates have been replaced by plates with fishtail-shaped ends, on both wagons pictured Solebar eyes: These are fitted to the front of the solebar reinforcement plates on 25086, but absent on 25070. Bufferbeam ends: These are longer than the first batch, they protrude beyond the buffers. Vacuum pipes: These are high, on an upstand above the bufferbeam. Braked end treadplate: There isn't one. We can see the top of the frame channels on 25086. It's possible there is a flush plate on 25070 but it's hard to see. Other details at the plain end: Just the vacuum pipe. Tank number: 25070 carries '070', 25086 has no tank number. Handbrake: The hand lever arrangement has been modified to the standard type with a long lever reaching past the vee hanger to a link arrangement. Tank support brackets: They have vertical ends rather than the chamfered ends of the first batch. So, fewer modifications to this batch but there were still some changes implemented over the years.

Of course, some Irish wagons had wheelsets on top...

Let's start with the first batch, 25050-25069, built in 1964. Even within the batch there were some variations. The National Library of Ireland has a nice photo by James O'Dea, at Derry in 1967: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307375 W-irons: These are the plain plate type, but the hornguides are festooned with bolts - 16 at each axlebox. This is a key feature of this first batch, which remained unchanged. Solebar reinforcements: There aren't any - it's just a plain channel section about the W-irons. This was soon modified. Solebar eyes: There aren't any. Bufferbeam ends: These are short, the bufferbeams barely protrude beyond the solebars and are no wider than needed to hold the buffers. Vacuum pipes: These are low, hanging below the bufferbeam. Braked end treadplate: There isn't one. We can see the top of the vacuum cylinders. Other details at the plain end: There is a bar across the end above the bufferbeam; this may be a vac brake load changeover valve? Tank number: 25062 was the 13th cement bubble built (the series started at 25050), and its tank carries the number 13. Not 062! Handbrake: this is perhaps the biggest difference to what we're used to. It's a handwheel not a lever. Similar handwheels were used on the previous type of wagon built by CIE, the 25201-25435 series flats https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/17496-cie-ballast-wagons-late-1960s-to-1980s-not-hoppers-or-flats/#findComment-250654, and of course on the vac fitted H vans and cattle wagons. Tank support brackets: without a handbrake vee hanger in the middle of the solebar, these are more obvious. They have chamfered ends. This photo in the IRRS archive dated 1966 shows another bubble with this handwheel brake below the solebar, and other features the same as the wagon above: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508783939 Of course in the 1960s these wagons would have been grey. Edit: here's a super photo from Ernie showing one of this first batch of bubbles in colour, dated 1967 and still in original condition with the brake handwheel below the solebar. I think it's 25068: However, 1970s and 1980s photos of these first-batch wagons show some changes, as well as the livery changes to orange and later ivory. This photo by Jonathan Allen on Flickr dated 1978 shows the first wagon with the handwheel above the solebar rather than below. Additionally, the solebars have been reinforced with vertical ribs above the W irons: Another Jonathan Allen photo from 1970 shows a short train with two early wagons having the handwheel above the solebar (the rest are later batch wagons with the familiar long brake lever): I'll leave you the fun of looking at 1970s and 1980s photos of cement trains and spotting those with the handwheel brakes - they're quite obvious when you are looking for them... This IRRS archive photo shows 25058 at Limerick, freshly overhauled and repainted in ivory in 1986. It retains its handwheel brake (above the solebar). The tank number has also been changed, it's now '058' whereas originally it would have been '9'. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508119127/ Moving now to the 2000s when I took most of my bubble photos, here's the class leader 25050: Revisiting the list of characteristics we looked at for the wagon in original condition, with changes marked in bold: W-irons: These are the plain plate type, but the hornguides are festooned with bolts - 16 at each axlebox. This is a key feature of this first batch, which remained unchanged. Solebar reinforcements: 7 vertical ribs have been welded above each W-iron. The exact number and spacing of the ribs varied between wagons, as they were a later modification. Solebar eyes: There aren't any. Bufferbeam ends: These are short, the bufferbeams barely protrude beyond the solebars and are no wider than needed to hold the buffers. Vacuum pipes: These are low, hanging below the bufferbeam. Braked end treadplate: There isn't one. We can see the top of the vacuum cylinders. Other details at the plain end: Nothing. The parts perhaps associated with the brakes seen in the 1960s photos have been removed. Tank number: 25050's tank carries the number '050'; it would originally have been '1'. Handbrake: this has been modified to the long lever type, the same as on the later wagons. Tank support brackets: without a handbrake vee hanger in the middle of the solebar, these are more obvious. They have chamfered ends. Here is 25067 seen from the other side, basically the same except the arrangement of solebar reinforcing ribs, and the installation of a raised treadplate over the vacuum cylinders. Here's 25059, showing the raised treadplate at the braked end more clearly, as well as some sort of box or housing on top of it. That may have been associated with the brake handwheel arrangement when positioned above the solebar. Here's another view of 25067 and we can see from this angle that it also has a similar boxy housing at the braked end: Ernie's photo of 25065 on the left shows the raised treadplate over the brake cylinders, but not the boxy housing. Note the solebar reinforcing ribs are evenly spaced (like 25050 above) rather than the uneven arrangement seen on 25059 and 25067. We'll finish the first batch with another of Ernie's photos showing 25067 and 25068 together. This shows the short bufferbeam ends particularly well. Note also that the raised treadplates are secured with 5 bolts each side (we'll see in due course that the later wagons have 6). These two seem to have lost their tank numbers.

Indeed, not too much suspense! All three series of 4-wheel container flat later formed the basis of other wagon types (beet, oil tanks, logs etc) so any of them would enable further developments.

I suspect I'll be buying some whatever they are! The image looks rather long and low, so maybe it's a 4-wheel container flat. There are several series to go at - 25436, 27101 and 27301.

I'm going to be discussing differences in the following areas: W-irons Solebar reinforcements Solebar eyes Bufferbeam ends Vacuum pipes Plain end treadplate Other details at the plain end Tank number Handbrake Tank support brackets There may be other differences that I haven't spotted yet.

Personally, I think there's something rather Indian about this livery:

CIE cement bubbles are all the same, right? Nope, of course not! They were the first wagons built on the 'CIE standard' 20 ton capacity, 20' long, 12' wheelbase 4-wheel underframe, and the design evolved through 7 batches between 1964 and 1972. In this thread I'll look at some of the variations between the batches as-built, and those which were a consequence of later modifications. Firstly, let's look at the stock books. Pender & Richards (1967) list the following: 25050-25069, built 1964, 21 ton capacity, 20'0" long, vacuum brake 25070-25094, built 1965, 21 ton capacity, 20'0" long, vacuum brake 25095-25099, built 1967, 20 ton capacity, 20'0" long, vacuum brake 25100-25104, built 1965, 21 ton capacity, 20'0" long, vacuum brake 25105-25119, built 1967, 21 ton capacity, 20'0" long, vacuum brake 'Bulk Cement Wagons. To cater for the increased output from the cement factories and Limerick and Drogheda, three series of bulk wagons have been turned out. These differ only in detail. The tanks, which are individually numbered, are loaded by gravity and emptied by pipeline'. By the time the first edition of Doyle & Hirsch was published in 1979, production was complete. The full list of 150 wagons is given as: 25050-25069, built 1964, 10.2 ton tare, 20 ton capacity, 12'0" wheelbase, vacuum brake 25070-25094, built 1965, 10.0 ton tare, 20 ton capacity, 12'0" wheelbase, vacuum brake 25095-25099, built 1967, 10.5 ton tare, 20 ton capacity, 12'0" wheelbase, vacuum brake 25100-25104, built 1965, 10.0 ton tare, 20 ton capacity, 12'0" wheelbase, vacuum brake 25105-25119, built 1967, 10.5 ton tare, 20 ton capacity, 12'0" wheelbase, vacuum brake 25120-25139, built 1970 10.5 ton tare, 20 ton capacity, 12'0" wheelbase, vacuum brake 25140-25199, built 1972, 10.5 ton tare, 20 ton capacity, 12'0" wheelbase, vacuum brake The mention of 'these differ in detail' and the differences in tare weights got me looking at my own photos, and those of others, to spot the differences. I was surprised how many differences there were! Operationally though, they were all effectively the same, and the working timetables list them all together with 10 ton tare and 20 ton capacity.

The RPSI did the same thing on some Cravens a decade or more later. I think the idea was to distinguish them from CIE / IR / IE normal service trains, while awaiting a proper livery.

Last week I posted a matrix of the B101 liveries based on photos online and in books. This seems like a more appropriate thread for the subject so I'll link it here. Since then I have been working on similar tables for the D, E and G classes, which have revealed some interesting results. I've not quite finished them yet but I'll add them to this thread soon. I was wondering - has anyone ever seen a photo of an E401 class in green? From what I've seen so far, they bypassed the green livery entirely, going directly from silver to either black'n'tan or plain black. The E421s were delivered in black'n'tan so never saw green either, except one preserved example many decades later. In contrast, some members of the D class carried two variants of green livery, while G603-G617 carried green at some stage (though I think G611-G617 all delivered in green were repainted before entering service). Whilst on the subject of the E class, while these were mostly based in Dublin, photo evidence suggests that there were some allocated to Cork and Limerick. Did they appear elsewhere - maybe Galway, Waterford, Drogheda or Dundalk might have merited a heavy shunter? Cheers, Mol

There are a few CIE road vehicles on eBay at the moment from this seller but the prices look steep to me: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/267083171281?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=sBK5n9TJQBO&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=PWnBnL0RQpq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY On the other hand, last night I couldn’t resist a couple of original livery Cravens at about £60 each. Though the first will need a new interior to be accurate.

That's very interesting, thanks! I took this photo of the same scene from a different angle, which shows the other end of the old coach (and still has an 071 in shot so not too far off topic...). I agree it's a full van, converted from an older passenger coach - you can see the outline of the old door at this end too. I think the old donor coaches were a mix of GSR 1930s vehicles, and the earliest CIE-built vehicles which were basically the same design as the GSR ones. To be honest I'm not sure which type this was, certainly it's pre-Bulleid in design but it may be one of the 1950s ones. This TPO at Connolly a couple of years later is definitely 1930s: Yes, I was wondering that, though only a very small part is visible. I have some later photos of the executive coaches in Maroon/gold/black livery, but this appears to be plain red at the ends. It may be an illusion confused by an open door. On the subject of odd liveries and straying off topic, I took this photo on the same occasion at Heuston, with a set of RPSI laminates in green/black/white: I wonder if IRM will re-use their triangulated coach chassis and commonwealth bogies for some carriages like these? Anyway, I'll drag the thread back on topic with 086 at Westport with a Mk3 set:

Agreed! This isn’t my finest photo, I was only 11 or 12 years old at the time, but the Mk3s behind 078 (i think the first in IR livery) make quite a contrast with the 1930s former GSR coach in the bay! https://flic.kr/p/2j81mAA I’ve only just noticed this, but the coach behind the EGV looks a bit odd.

This weekend's efforts have had a distinctly Great Northern theme. Neither are quite finished yet... The brake van will be completed in 1970s NIR condition, about as tatty as the cement van.

Sorry, I missed this post earlier. That's some great information, many thanks! I'm gradually trying to piece together a list of the NIR wagon stock so that's very helpful. Just a thought on your last point, I wonder if it was just the roller bearing axleboxes and springs that were re-used on two brake vans, like the one I'm asking about in this thread:

It looks like the restaurant might need to add mutton to the menu...

Sorting through my old Irish photos a couple of days ago, I actually found one of my own which shows the end of the traverser pit and that it was fed by just one external siding: The corner of the 1858 WLWR shed is on the left; the main wagon works building is on the right. I was almost certainly trespassing, but didn't dare go any further!

I'm looking for photos of the ex-GNR goods brake vans retained by NIR into the 1970s. There are two excellent images of C461 in Jonathan Allen's flickr albums, linked here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49497154092 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49496930316 It should be noted that the van has been modified from its GNR condition, including roller bearings, steel plates over some of the bodywork, mesh over some of the windows, and removal of most of the footsteps. I'd like to model this van in exactly this condition, but ideally I'd like some photos of the other side/end. Can anyone help? The van doesn't have to be the main focus of the photo, it's fine if it's in the background somewhere. Note that this is not the van preserved at Whitehead as 'Ivan' although that is of the same type and I would also be interested to see photos of that in NIR days. This photo, also from Jonathan Allen, includes just a bit of one of the GNR vans on the left-hand side, as well as a nice view of an NCC van which does show what the 'livery' looked like in colour, with the rust showing through the thin grey paint: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/39299741684/ This is a nice view from Robert McConaghy of the NCC type in later years showing the typical weathering, but the kit I'm building is the GNR type: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmac2013/11441044364/ Many thanks, Mol

Great, many thanks. That shows the red-brown livery in quite good condition, except on the side plates which contact the tippler. There doesn't appear to be a painted number - just the worksplate. Also there is extra reinforcing on the solebar compared to the previous picture - maybe this is one of the second batch of wagons and they were subtly different?