Glenderg

Wonderful Stuff sir, keep it coming. So evocative it's brilliant.

"20:50 Connolly Belfast will be a bus transfer from Dundalk to Belfast due to mechanical problem on earlier train" ala Irish rail on Twitter. Possibly the rescue loco to get the stock back into position for tomorrow?

Lovely work John, can't wait to see one in "Aluminium Filth" colour scheme. Definitely interested in one. Richie.

Popeye, As always, lovely work on the ballast wagon, especially the subtle staining. Would you consider sticking all your projects in one thread as the content is a real joy to roll through, great inspiration all round? As for the lime white staining, go on, tell uz, how ja do it? Richie.

and a wee lad with a shovel rotating 180 degrees?

Very well said GM. Cracking photos lads.

OoOooOOooh I do like them. Love the subtle work stained weathering. R.

Very nice work Tom. Any "build" shots? R

Gareth, happy to take criticism, but I'm not an RTR manufacturer! I still don't know what's wrong with me brake van Let me apologise though if you thought I was out to "get" any particular manufacturer - that is not, and wasn't my intention. My criticism is aimed at commercially sold products, not lads who scratchbuild stuff. I must also apologise to those who read these boards and take inspiration from it. I can't have helped their confidence much. Can we move on from this now so I can get back to butchering brake vans? Richie.

You clearly haven't read the full 13 pages of this thread the majority of which is about how to get 20' chassis. The last few posts have been instigated by my saying that the work of two manufacturers, in my honest opinion, is not to the standard it should be. I fail to see why you are getting excited, there's no organised witch hunt or conspiracy afoot. You, one of the best wagon builders on this forum, cannot be defending poor models and the price tag attached. Or are you ? And how do you suggest I take it up with a manufacturer? Dear Model Maker, Yer stuff is crap. Be Better. Else I'm not buyin. Yours faithfully etc. I've asked that everybody with a vested interest gets involved and engages with this conversation, to improve the standards of products. I have products from both stables sitting on my workbench so I do know their shortcomings. MY comments about gold standards still stand. There are two different sets of standards at play, buying customers need to be aware of that. What they do with their credit card is their own business. Lastly, the barbed comments about my 30 ton van are interesting. It's a kit. It's not an RTR wagon. You know where my workbench thread is if you have a gripe. Even better, send me a PM so your issues can be dealt with on a personal level and this thread can be kept on topic. Richie.

MISR have a ballast wagon produced which needs to be applauded for it's resin casting. However, the chassis is completely wrong, and a novice comparing a photo to the model would immediately see the difference. Also, there is a high resolution scan of the wagon here in the prototype drawings part of the forum which would be used as a starting point. It would appear it hasn't been used. The distance between side panels, the angle of the end stanchions, and lack of internal detail are missing. The bullied opens have no internal ribs. The cattle wagon is the wrong size. I know all this because I researched them myself to the nth degree. Should a punter want to part with his cash for them, go ahead, but please be aware of what you are purchasing. MISR have the potential to be a really strong player in the market, but they need to put a bit more effort into the research. IFM doesn't even compare. The models are rough finished shapeways type things with so much wrong and so lacking in detail, it's hard to know where to begin. The weedspray set Dave mentioned is really poor and there's probably 40 hours work to take the set to having a passing resemblance to the prototype vehicle. It's out there for people to buy though, so if you have the money, and aren't overly concerned about accuracy, go ahead and buy with confidence. Yes Anto, I know I'm treading on eggshells here, but I firmly believe that people are made aware of the shortcomings of some of the products available. I've no interest in starting a bun fight over this, or having this thread deleted. It's a healthy discussion about RTR wagons and I do hope IFM and MISR read this and engage. It may encourage them to improve their standards. Provincial wagons, K&M, SSM for instance are gold standard manufacturers who's prices equate to the quality of product. All others in the market need to come up to that datum in terms of price and quality. I'm not whinging because I can't get high quality models at pocket money prices Stevie. I scratchbuild and bash all my stock for Clients and my own collection, many of which I don't post on my workbench. When I do take on a wagon build I put a serious amount of research into it. I simply cannot fathom why others can't do likewise. Richie.

It's not about 21 vs 16.5 gauge. Every rail model that is Irish, be it southern or northern, should be 21mm - full stop. Think about it. It should be a scale model. It shouldn't be compressed or butchered to suit a track gauge. The prototype should, and must be modelled to a scale of 1:76.2 - no bull. But there are things that irk me more than that. I've seen a lot of really expensive crap models come out since the demise of MIR, people charging excessive amounts for poorly researched, badly executed models to fill the gap left behind. Frankly I'm sick of it. IFM and MISR products are not up to scratch and nobody here seems to have the balls to say it. It's shocking money for sloppy products in my opinion. Give us "bang on" wagons and we'll buy them in spades. Give us really crap versions and we'll happily stay silent. Willing to be banned for this. Richie.

Funny then when you see the railtours during the 60's, and all the photographers gathered around together, pretty much all taking the same photograph. As HF said recently, there must be old film in attic's throughout the country. Back on topic though, and I received some fabulous information from Mayner earlier, which I need to process fully, but along with that and a substantial find of 1940-1960's colour and B&W photo's I should be able to do the "family tree" of brake vans from turn of the century until recently. I'll do it later this evening. Thanks for all the input so far folks. It's been an interesting rabbit-hole adventure! R.

Cheers JHB. A further trawl into nerd land puts the lamp directly above the ducket, a wagon in D.Coackham's book agrees but its not the subject of the photo, and all trawls through the black and white photos seem relativley fruitless. You said in one of your recent nostalgic posts about the cost of pushing the shutter button on developing photos - it's clear that the gricers of that era preferred the mares up front than the donkeys at the back! I have a fair understanding of the NCC/UTA /BCDR batch of brake vans, and thankfully there are either drawings available for scratchbuilding or kits available to make your own - i'm hoping to tackle these in a few weeks time. The southern irish proportion of brake vans appears to centred on a wagon from 1906 which was designated two differing batches of running numbers - one for ballast brake plough vans and one for dedicated brake vans only. ( d. Coackham) but essentially the same dimensions. I cant find any record of anyone other then GSWR. Were they really that dominant? Back to the photos and i'm going to offer a hypothesis here. It's a 20 ton brake van on the basis that it is double veranda, lamp above the long ducket, and timber pattern akin to GSWR . I believe the wagon survived in use and was plated over and kept running in the same way 8452 was butchered and kept running for 106 years up until the cultural vandals in inchicore put the cutters torch to it. I'll post up my photos etc. Tomorrow when i have the external hard drive plugged in to further the conversation and possibly see if my crackpot theory holds any water. I have one photograph showing the GSWR Ballast brake with original livery , the letters PWD clearly visible in 1936. A lot of this research has a swiss cheese factor though. Full of holes. Richie

I certainly could not stomach paying around €30 for any 4 wheeled wagon, nor I imagine could many members on here. It would have to have working brake gear for that money.... A rake of Cement bubbles would pay the mortgage for a month! Not all 20' ft chassis are the same, but 1 done right is better than many done wrong!

Gents, Having a bit of a journey of discovery with Brake Vans of late, and came across these two photos at the crossing in limerick junction taken in 1957. I know that the 20 Ton Brake Van had vertical panelling, so it's not that, but the longer than 30 ton ducket on the side suggests it is. Is this non-striped ducket (presumably in yellow) and brown horizontal panelled brake van another variant that can be made of the SSM Brake Van kit or is it a different animal altogether? (It's not the 8452 - 8456 GSWR Ballast Brake Plough Van either - that's for another thread.) Any info would be appreciated. Richie.

Well said Anto - higher standards are a must, especially for the prices being asked. R

I'd avoid them like the plague. I speak from pure unadultarated bias only, i have no experience of them. You'd be locked into the manufacturers colour scheme, choice of donor vehicle, and since they're a relatively recent product, longevity is untested, in both colour fastness and appearance. That image that goes with it seems to be missing details like the silver window trim and you'd still have to get flourescent panels, warning flashes and running number decals for the tail ends, not to mention any extras to make up a proto rake. There are plenty lads on here who will professionally respray Lima/hornby mk3's (not me incidentally), which will last you a lifetime. Might be more than a fiver though, and i thinks it would be a better investment long term. It's also something that could be sold with integrity and retains its value if choose to model something else at a later date. Regards, Richie.

Really tasty work on the cage, best i've ever seen bar none. The brass etches - ladders and such - were they part of the original kit or custom? Either way it's stunning. And Des is as handy as a small pot when it comes to decal/brass kit emergencies! The old Lima's take an awful lot of slagging "wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding" etc., but stripped down and rebuilt Terminator style, they are reliable ol' workhorses. Any plans to dirty the rake up? Sure you'd do a tidy job of that too! Richie.

Funny stuff & enjoyable commentary!

Wow, what a photo. That falls into the "these are small, those are far away" category. It could honestly pass as a snap of a diorama. R.

Indeed, super photos. Love the "umpire" in the middle of it all, the standard management "poses" well captured! From a nerdy perspective, it's an interesting way to see the underside of a 42' flat...

I think I know where Kirley is going here. When I did my first scratchbuild of the pocket wagon I got the length wrong and had to put an infill piece to stretch it out. I tried bracing it with brass rod and so on, but the best was a small piece of Styrene Channel bonded and clamped to the underside of the wagon, effectively welded to the plastic. Cosmetically and structurally it works well. Shown here in red. I suppose it means that you can run your wagons empty without having the rail visible. The wagons look very impressive kirley, looking forward to seeing them in a rake - your layout certainly suits them. R.

The coaches in the pack are Bachmann 57' Corridor Composites, and can be resprayed to match to get a longer rake without paying through the nose for collectible coaches. R.

Love the last two Wanderer. Spent a lot of my childhood on that bridge watching 121's and cement bubbles throttle past! R.