jhb171achill

That's very true, Leslie - I had omitted that because it was a "half-enthusiast" thing. As an approximation of GSWR livery, it was utterly wrong in every way, but looked well! Grey livery on locos did tend to darken largely due to oily rags and coal smoke. It would have looked almost (but not quite) dirty black when, well, dirty and weathered, but on a newly painted loco was said to have a "bluish sheen".

And again, speaking of yellow things: Can someone assist with a gap in my extensive notes of livery stuff? When I was a mere nipper, back in the days when Jesus was learning his spellings, the M1 was cobbled and pussy was a kitten, and wifi signals were poor in the round tower at Clonmacnoise, all PW stuff was standard wagon grey, across the GNR, NCC, UTA and CIE. Then one day about 1971 or so, such things began to appear, on the rare occasions they saw a paintbrush, in the standard goods wagon brown (which nowadays has morphed into a horrible reddish garish brown!). My question is when did PW plough vans (not those funny yellow machines - proper vans) start appearing in yellow? Does anyone know? Would it have been about 1985 or so?

LIVERY OF GSWR 101 (J15) CLASS LOCOMOTIVES Initial building or earliest examples – approx. 1880/5 Lined olive green, as (accurately) depicted on No. 90 at Downpatrick, or the model of the 2.4.0 in the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in London. Lining: light green, red and black. Numberplate background – black, polished numerals. 1880/5 until approx. 1895 Same olive green with lining simplified to cream and black. Numberplate background remained black, polished numerals. Approx. 1895 – 1915 Glossy black with red lining (some evidence suggests that at least initially, the lining was red and white in places). The numberplate appears to have been red-background, polished numerals. 1915 - end GSWR era (1925), and on right through GSR days (1925-45) and into CIE days until approx. 1949 Plain battleship grey, including wheels, connecting rods, all motion, inside frames, smokebox and chimney. In most cases, cab interior too, though it would appear that some locos had a mid-brown cab interior on the loco, but not the tender. Numberplates were sometimes painted over completely in grey, sometimes with polished numerals*, but mostly the same grey background with numerals picked out in pale yellow or dark cream. (* loco numberplates were almost always cast iron or steel, so polished numerals may have been a short lived idea! Few GSR locos ever had brass numberplates. A few of some classes did have, but I am as good as certain that none were J15s!). Tenders were entirely grey in every area and detail, with no relieving features or markings at all. Any small tender end numberplates were just painted over. Wheels, brakes, the lot. One very excellent publication tells us that numberplates were black-backed with red numerals. This is incorrect, as is an assertion that smokeboxes were black. 1949 – end of steam operation (1963) CIE came into existence in 1945, but was nationalised in 1950. About 1949, “flying snails”, already being applied to publicity, carriages and buses, began to appear on locomotives. As we know, some passenger locos were to be painted green – these got them straight away – and soon, they began to appear on the tenders of the standard grey steam engines. At the same time, CIE started removing cabside numberplates and substituting these with larger painted numbers in the same pale yellow, sometimes a slightly darker shade. Thus, for some years, a mix is appropriate in the model world of plated / painted cabside numbers, paired with tenders with or without snails. It is important to remember here that in no cases were the snails yellow on any steam loco. They used the same standard transfer used on buses and carriages; thus all snails on all locos without exception were pale green with gold lining. The modern myth of the yellow snail is as accurate as a pink roundel on a 141, or a bright blue and tartan roof on a Mk 3 coach! It appears to have arisen due to the unfortunate turning out of both 184 and 461 in black with yellow snails in the 1990s. So, throughout the entire 1915-63 period, as far as J15s are concerned, if one wants accuracy it’s plain grey only. With a numberplate and no snail, the loco will fit any year within this time. With a snail and / or a painted number, post 1950 or so only. It’s worth pointing out that not every tender repainted in the 50s received a snail. Some remained plain grey. Of course, there’s an exception to ever rule. One solitary CIE loco received a repaint as late as 1962 – probably the last CIE steam loco ever to be completely repainted. It carried a unique variation (well, it WAS done in Cork, boy!). And – it was a J15! In spring 1962, J15 No. 193 received a repaint in the standard grey livery, but with a BLACK smokebox and chimney (and NO snail, incidentally). It was withdrawn from use months later. A final word about the black and green liveries. The lined green, as seen on 461 (though the shade is wrong) was a very attractive livery which was applied after about 1946 or so to some main line passenger locos and some suburban tanks, but nothing else with the exception of one old GSWR 4.4.0 (No. 60, perhaps, I forget). One 400 class loco appears to have had it unlined. Numberplates were red-backed on green locos with polished letters on 801/2, dark blue backed on 800, and painted in eau-de-nil (not yellow) on others. From about 1957, some locos which were repainted received all over black. From Clement’s recollections, there were no more than a couple of dozen thus treated, therefore grey remained the standard until the end. For the record, no J15s ever were painted black, even this late. No. 90, one Bandon Tank, at least two Woolwichs and possibly a 400 were thus treated. I have a list somewhere but have never been able to find it. I hope that this lengthy tome assists; in summary, therefore: All over grey with plates (picked out yellow, grey-backed) and plain tenders: appropriate 1915-63 Any tender with a snail, or painted number: 1949-63. All other colours or decorations: the modeller’s prerogative, of course, but incorrect historically, like our yellow, light blue and brown ICR…….!

Hi Noel I've just written out a comprehensive summary, and due to connectivity problems of this this computer, I lost what was a lengthy post before I got a chance to post it! Frustrating.... I will write out and post shortly. Suffice to say, for J15s, everthing grey after about 1915. Will resume radio silence shortly.........!

Wow!!!!!! Cattle trucks at last???? Six wheel carriages? Sez he hopefully........cue drooling icon.......

Wow!!!!! Count me in...... I note he's offering them in black as well as grey - either this is pre-1915 (thus with GSWR red lining) or not? If not, it's worth noting that none were ever black in GSR or CIE days, according to the likes of Bob Clements, Drew Donaldson and Jack O'Neill; this would also concur with the perambulations of jhb171senior.......

That's a period very much neglected by modellers, Old Blarney. It would be good to see something based on the Cork main line around 1945-50....

Exactly. They're like a mini digger in car park trying to excavate the Grand Canyon. In one afternoon.

"Chieftain" railways; a new train-station-operating-company for customer trains to Derrylondonderry?

Containers over this route would only have been in the last few years. This, of course, was primarily what warranted the inclusion of such pics in the book!

GSR crimson days: interiors - varnished dark oak (1st & 2nd & some 3rds), mid brown painted to waist level, dark cream above for internal 3rds of older vintage, e.g. 6 wheelers. Curtains in firsts!

Only seeing this now. It's exactly as Mayner says. While it wasn't absolutely every train which was like that, probably the vast majority were for the reasons stated above.

I think that yoke was with the original (1970) Hunslet-hauled "Enterprise". Like all on his layout, that model is an absolute beauty.

Eh? How come? How new are they?

Haha, Noel, fair enough!! No prizes for guessing my reply to your poll! Actually, such polls must be helpful to our dedicated band of commercial model and kit makers..

Interesting to see (rare!) recent repaints still with the NIR logo, some 20 years after it was superceded by the Translink device!

For GSR, I wonder if there's a preference for the initial extremely dark "crimson lake" (a dark purpley brown), chocolate & cream, or LMS-shade maroon?

Interesting old carriages. The middle one is an ancient CBSCR one, and the other two equally elderly GSWR stock. Essential for a West Cork layout! Worsley Works GSWR six wheel kits would suit perfectly.

The loco, posters and shed are really top notch! Well done!

Thank you very much, Noel. I'll pass that on to Barry too.

Ironic......nowadays, definitely footbridge only. In the days when those things were made, across the track was fine if (a) you were late, or if (b) you wanted a gricing photo!

Very true.

Might be worth advising the restoration committee there (maybe they know) that occasionally such things crop up at auctions. I know someone who has one (though he's not for selling it!)

Ah! I see that now, Minister. Pity there are no GSWR six wheelers to go there too! Yes, the FB is a standard MGWR type. They had another curved design as well.

Perfect! Roll on the Murphy one, though I wouldn't want anything on a layout that was "safety elved" in appearance!