C.I.E. 2-6-2 No 850

[Mike 84C]

Did this loco run in lined green? and would it have been a similar green to the livery on the Maunsell 2-6-0"s. Looking for a bit of help here!

[WRENNEIRE]

To the best of my knowledge it remained in unlined black from the time it entered CIE until its withdrawl in '55

[Mayner]

Most of the Dublin Suburban Tank locos including 850 were re-painted in lined green in a similar style to the Woolwich by CIE in the late 1940s.

 

There are black and white photos in various books but I am not sure if there are any colour photos about.

 

It might be worth looking at Drew Donaldson's models in the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum to get the general style.

[Mike 84C]

I ask because, in Clements&McMahon Locomotivies of the GSR there are a couple of close ups that appear to show a white and black line that makes a panel on the bunker rear and up around the cabside cut out. I did use a magnifying glass! And my wife also thinks the same and could she be wrong?!

[heirflick]

wifes are never wrong (god help us) - just looked at the pics and the linings are there!

[leslie10646]

I ask because, in Clements&McMahon Locomotivies of the GSR there are a couple of close ups that appear to show a white and black line that makes a panel on the bunker rear and up around the cabside cut out. I did use a magnifying glass! And my wife also thinks the same and could she be wrong?!

Mayner is quite correct about the suburban tanks.

 

No.850 was painted green when she had her last overhaul in 1948. Source: the late David Murray's article in IRRS Journal Vol 9 p239.

 

Leslie

[Old Blarney]

Mike,

 

Re GSR/CIE locomotive No 850, and our discussion about her at Wakefield, I have had a closer inspection of the photograph of her on page 336, Locomotives of the GSR. Using a magnifying glass to assist me in my task it appears that each of the numbers is lined-out. The highlighting lines are visible on the interior, and the exterior of each number. This confirms my memories of 850 and how I remember her when she ran on the Dublin and South Eastern Section of CIE.

 

The locomotive was painted green. The numbers on her side tanks were also green, but in a lighter shade (Eau-de-Nile). The numbers were edged in gold.

 

Unfortunately, I cannot be remember with certainty the colours used for the lining-out on her tanks. This could have been gold or possibly black white black?

 

Is there anyone else out there who can shed further light on this matter?

[jhb171achill]

Yes. She was never black, but when built almost certainly battleship grey. She was repainted at some stage in standard CIE green, lined in black and white. This livery may be seen on 800 in Cultra. Drew Donaldson's models, fascinating as they were, did not employ authentic liveries, nor the correct shade of CIE green. Having said that, they looked very well!

 

On the subject of Cultra, there are many significant livery inaccuracies there too, despite being a museum. Apart from 800 being in CIE green but with G S markings, the goods brake has black and white markings on the ducket (should be yellow and black) and the GSWR gunpowder van is the wrong colour and has the wrong lettering, in the wrong style!

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

Yes. She was never black, but when built almost certainly battleship grey. She was repainted at some stage in standard CIE green, lined in black and white. This livery may be seen on 800 in Cultra. Drew Donaldson's models, fascinating as they were, did not employ authentic liveries, nor the correct shade of CIE green. Having said that, they looked very well!

 

On the subject of Cultra, there are many significant livery inaccuracies there too, despite being a museum. Apart from 800 being in CIE green but with G S markings, the goods brake has black and white markings on the ducket (should be yellow and black) and the GSWR gunpowder van is the wrong colour and has the wrong lettering, in the wrong style!

 

Is Dunluce Castle the right colour as she sits in Cultra as any photos I've seen of her she is always in black with red lining

[jhb171achill]

Yes, Anthony. Dunluce Castle and BCDR 30 were painted in their original liveries by the UTA under the direction of the late Harold Houston, whose knowledge of all things NCC and BCDR was encyclopaedic. They can therefore be taken as absolutely accurate - more than can be said, sadly, for many things the museum have repainted themselves. 800 was accurate in CIE green until the museum added the GSR initials on the tender - it should be a flying snail for that livery. However, 800 was painted in Inchicore before being taken north, so the green paint and lining is authentic CIE. The Donegal stock in the museum is also accurate, as it is actually the livery they were taken out of traffic in. The Castlederg coach is not at all accurate, and while the colour on the Cavan & Leitrim coach is accurate enough GSR maroon, the lettering most certainly isn't right! But, as a friend of mine who works there mentioned one time, it's better an item survives in the wrong livery, than doesn't survive at all!

[Weshty]

But, as a friend of mine who works there mentioned one time, it's better an item survives in the wrong livery, than doesn't survive at all!

 

Amen to that. Even if finished in Dynorod red, would it matter as long as you can see it in the flesh? By contrast, once an item is gone, that's pretty much it.

 

RIP bubbles, cement pallets, beet, bredins, ammonia tankers (oh for a good underchassis photo of those big boys...) etc.

[Mike 84C]

Gentlemen; thank you very much for all the advice. I am ruminating on the best way to get a reasonable likeness of 850. When I have something worth showing I shall post it. Mike

[Mike 84C]

Had another thought, as I"m new to things Irish, is there a supplier of Inchicore style smokebox fronts/doors and also the built up chimney used on large CIE locos? For me those highly visible parts are a signature that says GSR/CIE. Mike

[jhb171achill]

I have seen drawings for 850 somewhere.. maybe in IRRS, not sure. If I can find out I'll post here.

[BosKonay]

In all her glory

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/content.php/263-GSR-800-Class-Locomotive-Drawings

[jhb171achill]

Most of the Dublin Suburban Tank locos including 850 were re-painted in lined green in a similar style to the Woolwich by CIE in the late 1940s.

 

There are black and white photos in various books but I am not sure if there are any colour photos about.

 

It might be worth looking at Drew Donaldson's models in the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum to get the general style.

 

 

Drew's models are absolutely superb though it should be remembered that since he liked CIE green, he painted almost all his models that way. In reality, very few prototypes of his models were anything other than grey.

 

850 started life in plain grey (rather than black).

 

Drew painted one model loco (I forget which) in MGWR livery. I am not sure where he got the details - if from Bob Clements it was correct, as Bob had an actual Broadstone paint sample. Many incorrect theories have been put about over the years about MGWR green - and even more so, GSWR green. The correct shade of the latter is now on 90 at the DCDR.

[Kirley]

BCDR 30 were painted in their original liveries by the UTA under the direction of the late Harold Houston, whose knowledge of all things NCC and BCDR was encyclopaedic. They can therefore be taken as absolutely accurate

 

Desmond Coakham’s book on the BCDR states, “We may complain about the painting style (carried out at the York Road Works) of No.30 that now reposes in the Ulster Folk & Transport Museum. The green is wrong and the company initials were not carried after ‘Invisible Green’ was given up,”

 

It seems the greens used on the BCDR were ‘Indivisible Green’ almost black in colour followed from 1937 by a dark Olive Green.

 

In the pursuit of accurate railways colours who knows where the truth lies.

[jhb171achill]

Accurate BCDR loco gee. Is indeed certainly not at all like what's on 30. The real shade was pretty much similar to what's on the RPSI carriages at Whitehead - not exactly "invisible green" but a very dark shade. For an accurate model, that's the best bet.

 

Not everything in Cultra is accurate livery wise - in fact possibly only about half of the stuff. If anyone's interested in a list, for the record, I'll post it.

 

In most cases with a little research the accurate forms of liveries are readily available.