Two Axel Coaches in Ireland?

[Auto-Train Original]

Did any Irish operator have coaches with two axles and four wheels? If so, are there any photos or drawings on line. Thanks.

[jhb171achill]

Yes, they all did originally. However, they were small and box-like, and none had the "modern" type of coach body style of the 1880s onwards. Most were gone by the early 1890s. A handful survived longer, but usually not in regular traffic.

If 4-wheel coaches are desired on a layout that is Irish, think more Stockton & Darlington style than 1880-1920 body style, and definitely not the long-wheelbase fourwheelers seen in Britain. The "Thomas Annie & Clarabel" Hornby 4-wheelers, being roughly wagon-length, are OK length wise, but even then the body style is too "modern" for anything that ran here.

If I get a chance tomorrow I will post some photos.

[Niles]

The CB&SCR had a four wheeler, No.7, ex DN&GR. Later became a Signal dept van in GSR days.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Niles

[Westcorkrailway]

Seems the DNGR and CMDR had 4 wheel coaches. Some of these were still seen on sidings in the mid 40s! 
 

2 minutes ago, Niles said:

The CB&SCR had a four wheeler, No.7, ex DN&GR. Later became a Signal dept van in GSR days.

Yes aperently so, can’t find many photos of it. If it is the coach in Ernie shepards book it does appear to be very long for what JB says these coaches look like 
 

[Niles]

Did the Waterford & Tramore have some perchance? Can't find my copy of Coakham's book, but it had a list of its stock...

[jhb171achill]

2 minutes ago, Niles said:

The CB&SCR had a four wheeler, No.7, ex DN&GR. Later became a Signal dept van in GSR days.

Yes, and there was one, or possibly two, early GSWR six-wheelers which ended their days in departmental use with the middle axle removed. I'm preparing a longer post about all this stuff.

 

6 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Seems the DNGR and CMDR had 4 wheel coaches. Some of these were still seen on sidings in the mid 40s! 
 

Yes aperently so, can’t find many photos of it. If it is the coach in Ernie shepards book it does appear to be very long for what JB says these coaches look like 
 

Yes, it is. It was a one-off; if one wanted to model that, the Hornby "Thomas" coach is as close a match as you'd get. Moreover, it was in departmental use possibly as far back as 1901.

1 minute ago, Niles said:

Did the Waterford & Tramore have some perchance? Can't find my copy of Coakham's book, but it had a list of its stock...

They did; see my post shortly. These were, however, open-sided things more Stephenson's Rocket era than anything later. I'll post a pic shortly.

[jhb171achill]

FOUR WHEELED COACHES IN IRELAND

I’ve been asked to comment on the general subject of 4-wheel passenger stock in Ireland.

Early coaches were all 4-wheel, as seen on the likes of the Ulster Railway Co., the Belfast, Hollywood & Bangor, Dublin & Drogheda, Dublin & Kingstown, Waterford & Tramore and the Cork & Bandon - as well as the bigger companies like the GSWR & MGWR in their early days (1840s-70s).

However by the early or mid 1870s, six-wheelers had become the norm. Thus, four wheel chassis gave way to six wheel, long before body styles caught up - the precise opposite of Britain.

Thus, as a general rule (albeit with a VERY few exceptions) it was possible to see comparatively long-wheelbase four wheelers in Britain, it was not the case here, where instead you’d see six-wheelers built in the 1870s, with small, box-like carriage body of more 1860s “architecture”.

Examples:

First, this 1870 standard GSWR passenger brake has the older body design, but even at that stage they are 6-wheeled. Some half dozen of these were relegated to departmental use probably before 1900, and remained as static "sheds" in various locatiuons even into the 1960s, over half a century since they had turned a wheel. Much lower than 1885-onwards stock, and box-like with small windows, a throwback to stage coach design. The last of this TYPE of vehicle would have been withdrawn in the early years of the 20th century, though the MGWR (totally different design) rebuilt a single one in the 1920s - though I believe it did not last much longer.

Again, below, typical early body shape (Waterford & Tramore, 1860s) but ALREADY six-wheeled.

The earliest "modern" body shapes were by now the standard 30ft lengeth (though the BCDR & CBSCR had, respectively, longer and shorter lengths of 6-wheelers) - and all coaches built after about 1880 were like this. Bogies appeared in Ireland in the 1890s. meanwhile, Britain was still building long 4-wheelers, like the hattons 4-wheelers; so for modellers, a Hrnby or Hattons 4-wheeler is too long and modern a body for the Irish 4-wheel era, and an axle short for any time after that!

 

These are MGWR types; dimensions are more or less standard across many companies, though carriages built much after 1910 had higher roof profiles on all companies.

 

THIS is what four-wheeled Irish stock looked like, and the body designs alone will make clear how early it was when such things were the norm. Look at the first. If the (directly) above MGWR 6-wheeler is box-like in comparison to anything post-1915, it's still cavernous compared to the lower one from the same company, about 15 years earlier. And yet, below represent the ULTIMATE development of passenger-carrying four-wheelers here. Inside, they had longitudinal benches instead of proper seats. There was a cull of these in the early to mid 1890s, with barely a few surviving into the very early 1900s. There is evidence of one, at least, being seen in Ballinrobe, Loughrea and Clifden in the mid to late 1890s. The MGWR rebuilt ONE in the early 1920s; why, or for what use, or how long in that use, is not known - but it was clearly something non-standard as this type of thing had LONG gone by then from normal traffic, even on railways like the CBSCR where much of the coaching stock were museum pieces.

More typically for the 4-wheel era; this. Some of the old Dublin & Kingstown open stock (like this, or the one in Cultra) - probably about half a dozen - were retained as absolute last-resort stuff for summer excursions into the very early 1900s, while on the Waterford & Tramore one or two opens like this (though SIX-wheeled!) were in stock into GSR times - but almost never used - due to the isolated nature of this line.

So, overall, the moral of the story is: if you want 4-wheelers, you're better modelling one of our very earliest railways; if you want a layout based on anything at all, anywhere on this island, post-1880 or so, go for 6-wheelers.

Edited November 16, 2022 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

43 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Seems the DNGR and CMDR had 4 wheel coaches. Some of these were still seen on sidings in the mid 40s!

Latterly the CMDR had straight-sided six-wheelers. But any railway which operated before 1875 or so would originally have had 4-wheelers; however, as you suggest, they were very long gone from passenger use by the 1940s. A few just survived because they got stuffed into some shed or down some weed-grown siding and forgotten about; others were used as mobile tool sheds and the like in place such as Limerick Works, Waterford Yard, or Inchicore.

[Lambeg man]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Early coaches were all 4-wheel, as seen on the likes of the Ulster Railway Co.,

An Ulster 1st class 4-wheeler courtesy of the IRRS Journal.

Given that photography was in its infancy, this was probably taken about 1860 ish.

 

[jhb171achill]

3 minutes ago, Lambeg man said:

An Ulster 1st class 4-wheeler courtesy of the IRRS Journal.

Given that photography was in its infancy, this was probably taken about 1860 ish.

 

I'd say so, yes; and this also represents well what would be the ultimate general type of design for Irish 4-wheelers, just before a similar stage-coach-inspired body design was slightly lengthened to produce the first 6-wheelers. The livery, by the way, is believed to have been a very dark maroon.

[Galteemore]

I know these don’t count but they are fun….

[Mayner]

The Waterford and Central of Ireland and Waterford Dungarvan and Lismore appear to have used 4 w coaches until they were absorbed by the GSWR in the early 1900s

Do any clear photos or diagrams of WCIR or WDLR 4w coaches exist?

There is an early 1900s photo (EK 10)  of a train at Dungarvan with what appears to be WDLR coaches with oil lighting, GSWR 6w coaches were fitted with gas lighting from the 1880s.

https://www.waterfordmuseum.ie/exhibit/web/BasicImageSearch/offset/105/subject/_1_7_3_/

The ex-WDLR and WCIR 4 wheelers appear to have been withdrawn before the 1925 Amalgamation, but at least one Macroom 4 wheel coach survived into GSR ownership and was fitted with gas lighting!

Irish Standard Gauge Railways ©Tom Middlemass 1981

The CMDR 4wheeler appears to have a 25' body length based on a minimum compartment width of 5'

The CMDR was opened in the 1860s its likely that 4w coaches ordered by Irish companies during the 1860s and 70s would of been of similar dimensions and outline to the CMDR coach as opposed to the Ulster and the Waterford Tramore (ex-MGWR) 1st Class Carriages with their 1840/50s 'stage coach' styling. The Tramore 1st was apparently built by Dawson's in Phibsborough for the MGWR and incorporated a compartment with a fold down bed for use as a sleeping compartment.

The Hornby & Hattons 4wheelers may not be too far off in terms of overall dimensions for 4w coaches ordered by Irish companies during the 1860s & 70s, companies like the South Eastern, Brighton, GNR worked their London suburban services with close coupled rakes of short 4w coaches into the early 1900s. The GWR Dean 3rd and Bk 3rd coaches built for branch line use during the 1890s were of similar length to 6 wheel coaches built during the same era.

Coaches are probably the least of the challenges faced by an Irish Mike Sharman modelling the pre-1900 era as virtually all the locos and stock would have to be scratchbuilt especially if modelling one of the Waterford companies.

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Mayner

[Galteemore]

SER Kits offer very nice 7mm versions of English prototypes which may also have been typically seen in Ireland in the mid Victorian era…..

[Westcorkrailway]

11 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Do any decent photos or details of Waterford and Central of Ireland (WCIR) or Waterford Dungarvan and Lismore 4 w coaches exist?

Its likely that both companies bought contemporary designs from British builders like Brown Marshall, Metropolitan or Birmingham Carriage and wagon as section of line were opened. The WCIR potentially buying coaches between the 1840s and 1880-90s as it completed its main line and Mountmellick branch, the WDLR opening its line in 1879

There is an early 1900s photo of a train at Dungarvan with what appears to be WDLR coaches with oil lighting, GSWR 6w coaches were fitted with gas lighting from the 1880s.

https://www.waterfordmuseum.ie/exhibit/web/BasicImageSearch/offset/105/subject/_1_7_3_/

Its unlikely that any WDLR or WCIR 4w coaches survived into GSR or CIE ownership.

The Hornby and Hatton's 4w coaches appear to be shorter than their 6 wheel coaches.

The 4 wheelers appear to be based on a 25' body length the Hornby 4wheelers with oil lamps would pass the 3' rule, but coaches would be the least of challenges for an Irish Mike Sharman modelling the pre-1900 era most of the locos and stock would need to be scratchbuilt anyway.

 

Hornby 4 & 6 Wheel Coaches

Good news for @Flying Snail!

[Flying Snail]

12 hours ago, Mayner said:

Do any decent photos or details of Waterford and Central of Ireland (WCIR) or Waterford Dungarvan and Lismore 4 w coaches exist?

Yes, drawings of a WCIR 4-wheeler exist!

The HMRS can provide digital drawings for a Second Class Carraige built by the Metropolitan Railway Carriage & Wagon Company in 1878 - 4 Compartments, 14ft w/b, 25ft o/b

https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-21237--second-class--4-compartments--14ft-w-b--25ft-o-b.html

 

They also have drawings for a third class 6-wheeler

Edited November 17, 2022 by Flying Snail
Added details about the carriage

[Flying Snail]

25 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Good news for @Flying Snail!

Indeed   -  and the WCIR 4-wheelers were famous ... as been the worst carriages in Ireland! 

I've found the two HMRS drawings but can't get any decent photos of WCIR carriages or wagons!

Edited November 16, 2022 by Flying Snail

[jhb171achill]

35 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

SER Kits offer very nice 7mm versions of English prototypes which may also have been typically seen in Ireland in the mid Victorian era…..

That's EXACTLY what Irish carriages were like back when they WERE four-wheeled. the almost total differences with the English ones seen in Mayner's post above are obvious.

[Westcorkrailway]

6 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

Indeed   -  and the WCIR 4-wheelers were famous ... as been the worst carriages in Ireland! 

I've found the two HMRS drawings but can't get any decent photos of WCIR carriages or wagons

I have seen a grand total of 7 images of the kinsale Branchline while in use in all my searching. 8 if you add the turning of the first sod which oddly enough in a rare case of early 1960s photography….was photographed! 
 

and not many of the photos I’ve found are all that good. There is one panoramic shot of the station area, one that illustrates the cork and bandon livery, one that shows the kinsale crash of 1915 and one showing the turntable (which I seem to have found a large piece of!) and the 2-4-0s that would have been Standard on the line at that point. The rest are pretty garbage.
 

Ballymartle is the holy grail I’m looking for. I have 3 photographs of it 10-30 years post closure but nothing while twas in use….a station that can be seen from my bedroom window 

 

I can imagine that in some place there is WCIR stuff somehere, but it takes time to track it down   

[murrayec]

Mr Fry's Dublin & Kingstown Railway 2 axle models;-

Eoin.

[Northroader]

There’s a nice collection of four wheelers in the old photo of Castlebar, MGWR:

[Mayner]

It looks like 4w coaches built for Irish companies from the 1860s onwards were similar in length to the Hattons and Genesis coaches as opposed to the shortie 'Stage Coach" style vehicles of the 1840s and 50s like the Ulster or D&K vehicles.

The Macroom 4 wheeler 14 appears to be a 25' vehicle possibly built during the 1860s, the gas lighting is likely to be a GSR modification.

https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-21237--second-class--4-compartments--14ft-w-b--25ft-o-b.html

HMRSI 21237 is a Waterford and Central of Ireland  25' 14' wb 4w compartment second ordered from Metropolitan Carriage and Wagon in 1879

The second coach listed is a 6w 3rd ordered from Brown Marshall in 1893 so it looks like the WCIR started acquiring 6w stock before the company was absorbed in the the GSWR.

https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-29134--4-wheel-passenger-brake-van--15ft-w-b.html

HMRI 29134 is a Waterford Dungarvan and Lismore  15' wb 4w Passenger Brake ordered from Metro Camel in 1893 a relatively modern vehicle for a 4wheeler.

I put in an enquiry to the HMRS for the WCIR 4wheeler so it will be interesting to see if I receive a response.

 

On an unrelated subject the two ex-WLWR "Castle" 2-4-2T GSWR  267 & 491 are close in outline to the LNWR 5'6" radial tanks which survived in BR ownership into the mid 1950s a potential subject for a close enough UK conversion if anyone brings out a rtr model. The GSWR sold one of the ex-WLWR 2-4-2T to the Cork and Macroom, Inchacore apparently forgot the two locos were identical and classified  267 as F5 and 491 as F6

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Mayner

[Killian Keane]

Regauged Dublin & Kingstown stock, 1834 2nd and 1838 3rd, apologies for the quality

[KMCE]

There is also the 1878 Metropolitan Carriage Works 21' 6"  4-Wheeled Third Brakes operated on the DSER line. 

As far as I know there were at least two and were in use on commuter trains between Dublin & Bray.  Both appear to have ended up being used by the loco dept. in their later lives.

Quite small overall, and noticeable in the lack of tumblehome and narrower loading gauge than standard Irish stock.

 

Ken

[Auto-Train Original]

Wow! I am simply blown away by everyone graciously sharing their information. Thank you all indeed. Delighted I joined this forum.

[jhb171achill]

On 18/11/2022 at 1:22 PM, KMCE said:

There is also the 1878 Metropolitan Carriage Works 21' 6"  4-Wheeled Third Brakes operated on the DSER line. 

As far as I know there were at least two and were in use on commuter trains between Dublin & Bray.  Both appear to have ended up being used by the loco dept. in their later lives.

Quite small overall, and noticeable in the lack of tumblehome and narrower loading gauge than standard Irish stock.

 

Ken

Superb stuff, Ken - I was unaware of those. A rarity.

Found a pic in an old IRRS journal of a Macroom six-wheeled coach of later design.

 

 

Also, below, the three Fry models of typical 1880s six-wheelers of GSWR design; thus, the Hattons coaches.

One is in the short-lived late 1920s GSR chocolate & cream, which it is unlikely to have carried, and the others are in standard GSWR dark lake livery.

Edited November 20, 2022 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

On the all-first, you'll notice a rudimentary repair that Cyril Fry had done to the left-hand pair of wheels!

Edited November 21, 2022 by jhb171achill