071s on De Dietrich/MKIV sets?

[LNERW1]

Just wondering whether 071s would theoretically work instead of a 201 to power MKIV or De Dietrich trainsets? I know they don’t have HEP, but is there any other equipment missing?

[hexagon789]

On 21/8/2024 at 10:19 PM, LNERW1 said:

Just wondering whether 071s would theoretically work instead of a 201 to power MKIV or De Dietrich trainsets? I know they don’t have HEP, but is there any other equipment missing?

The Mk4s have HEP provided by two gensets in the DVT and the De-Dietrichs now use refurbished Mk3 EGVs rather than power from the 201s, so loco-provided HEP doesn't really matter.

On the question of actually hauling either type, there would be no problem as 071s are dual braked, so can haul air-braked Mk3/Mk4/D-D stock no problem.

The 90mph top speed of the 071s would only pose a slight problem on the Cork Line where there is now plenty of 100mph track including one almost 50-mile long section passed continuously for that speed now; the Cross-Border Dublin/Belfast Main Line having a 90mph ceiling.

The main safety issue might be lack of door control buttons on the 071s, as I believe when they hauled Mk3s the doors were always operated by the guard from the van or in later years from selected door vestibule control panels when modified. Not sure on the De-Dietrichs, but on the Mk4s the driver does the doors from the cab AFAIK.

I don't see that an emergency or even railtour would have any real insurmountable issues with D-D or Mk4s being hauled by an 071 though, there's no physical incompatibility in the most basic features - getting the damn' thing to go and stop!

[GSR 800]

16 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

The Mk4s have HEP provided by two gensets in the DVT and the De-Dietrichs now use refurbished Mk3 EGVs rather than power from the 201s, so loco-provided HEP doesn't really matter.

On the question of actually hauling either type, there would be no problem as 071s are dual braked, so can haul air-braked Mk3/Mk4/D-D stock no problem.

The 90mph top speed of the 071s would only pose a slight problem on the Cork Line where there is now plenty of 100mph track including one almost 50-mile long section passed continuously for that speed now; the Cross-Border Dublin/Belfast Main Line having a 90mph ceiling.

The main safety issue might be lack of door control buttons on the 071s, as I believe when they hauled Mk3s the doors were always operated by the guard from the van or in later years from selected door vestibule control panels when modified. Not sure on the De-Dietrichs, but on the Mk4s the driver does the doors from the cab AFAIK.

I don't see that an emergency or even railtour would have any real insurmountable issues with D-D or Mk4s being hauled by an 071 though, there's no physical incompatibility in the most basic features - getting the damn' thing to go and stop!

Doors are operated from drivers cab on DDs iirc. 

Would it be that hard to rig them with it? Getting tight enough with increasing services.

[hexagon789]

4 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

Doors are operated from drivers cab on DDs iirc. 

Would it be that hard to rig them with it? Getting tight enough with increasing services.

Depends how invasive or straight forward such mods might be. I presume there is still provision to work doors from the van or from a door vestibule? 

Wouldn't having a guard work the doors on any prospective 071 working be simpler?

 

 

[GSR 800]

10 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Depends how invasive or straight forward such mods might be. I presume there is still provision to work doors from the van or from a door vestibule? 

Wouldn't having a guard work the doors on any prospective 071 working be simpler?

 

 

It can be worked from the DVT of course, but whether they'd have to be keyed in or not I do not know

[Niles]

40 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

 

I don't see that an emergency or even railtour would have any real insurmountable issues with D-D or Mk4s being hauled by an 071 though, there's no physical incompatibility in the most basic features - getting the damn' thing to go and stop!

MkIVs are only certified for 071 haulage in an emergency/rescue situation, a 'planned' working such as a railtour isn't permissable unfortunately. 

 

(And yes, it has been looked into in the past!)

 

I'm not sure what D.D. situation is officially but there's so few of them that asking to have a set operate tour with one would be moot. As with mkIVs though they can be rescued by 071s.

 

Edited August 27 by Niles

[MOGUL]

Not strictly an 071, but there was an Enterprise set recovered by a 111(think it was 8113) from Lisburn back to Belfast earlier this year or last year. Would imagine this was done as there wasn't a spare 201 in Belfast at the time. 

 

 

[airfixfan]

Has happened a few times on NIR

[hexagon789]

4 hours ago, Niles said:

MkIVs are only certified for 071 haulage in an emergency/rescue situation, a 'planned' working such as a railtour isn't permissable unfortunately. 

 

(And yes, it has been looked into in the past!)

 

I'm not sure what D.D. situation is officially but there's so few of them that asking to have a set operate tour with one would be moot. As with mkIVs though they can be rescued by 071s.

 

Oh I appreciate that, but in emergency or in theory a tour seemed about the only options for it as in ordinary service seemed so unlikely as to be essentially a given hard 'no', so I ruled that out from the beginning.

 

 

[NIRCLASS80]

Several issues with the NIR 110’s that rule out DD haulage in public service/rail tour. Firstly as stated, door control, secondly speed restriction on class, thirdly come the new hourly timetable no stock will ever be available to run anything other than enterprise services. 
I can keep going but I can safely say DD haulage with passengers with anything other than a 201 won’t be happening. 

[ttc0169]

Lucky to have paths for any sort of railtours in the not too distant future due to increase in frequency of rail services throughout the country-north and south. 

[airfixfan]

After October 7th with an hourly Enterprise railtours all but impossible Belfast to Dublin

[Warbonnet]

071s are also not push/pull fitted of course, so there would have to be additional shunting done at each end.

[irishrailways52]

i defnetly remember seeing somthing about an irish rail 071 rescueing a DD set with pasengers on board within the last year

[MOGUL]

15 hours ago, irishrailways52 said:

i defnetly remember seeing somthing about an irish rail 071 rescueing a DD set with pasengers on board within the last year

Not sure if it is the time you were thinking of, but your comment seems to have jogged a memory so I checked over WhatsApp’s..

11th November 2021, DD set failed at clongriffin quite late so must have been the 20:50 ex Connolly.. 071 on IWT duties in NW was borrowed to go and recover the set with passengers on board back to Connolly

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, MOGUL said:

Not sure if it is the time you were thinking of, but your comment seems to have jogged a memory so I checked over WhatsApp’s..

11th November 2021, DD set failed at clongriffin quite late so must have been the 20:50 ex Connolly.. 071 on IWT duties in NW was borrowed to go and recover the set with passengers on board back to Connolly

I had that thought in the back of my mind too, but wasn’t sure.

Doors were presumably operated from the DVT?

[MOGUL]

Found a pic, will ask if I can share it on here.. Looks like the 071 coupled up to the DVT to haul it back into Conolly, and would imagine it didn't stop anywhere en-route so would imagine they used the DVT for door controls

[irishrailways52]

7 hours ago, MOGUL said:

Not sure if it is the time you were thinking of, but your comment seems to have jogged a memory so I checked over WhatsApp’s..

11th November 2021, DD set failed at clongriffin quite late so must have been the 20:50 ex Connolly.. 071 on IWT duties in NW was borrowed to go and recover the set with passengers on board back to Connolly

thats it alright