CIE Palvans

[Mol_PMB]

Inspired by a comment on the Bulleid wagons thread about alternative uses for the triangulated underframe, I thought I'd collate a bit of information on the CIE Palvan here.

This is a topic that has been considered before in various threads so firstly I should acknowledge and link them:

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/3048-cie-palvan/

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/9588-cie-palvan-dimensions/

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/10509-palvans-in-ireland/

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8002-triangular-underframe/

There have also been some very nice models made by various forum members which appear on their own threads. I won't link all of them but feel free to add your own links/photos in this thread. In most cases these models are based on kits for the British Railways Palvan, which has some similarities and some differences from the CIE version.

One of the threads above was about dimensions, which didn't seem to reach a definite conclusion. Here is a drawing of the BR Palvan which the kits represent, from the Barrowmore MRG website: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRFreight1Issue.pdf

Known dimensions for the CIE Palvan are wheelbase 10'0" and length over headstocks 16'11", quoted in 'Irish Railways Today' (Pender & Richards; 1967). So the wheelbase is the same as the BR version, but the CIE body is 7" shorter.

I haven't been able to find any equivalent diagrams/drawings for CIE wagons although I expect they exist somewhere. The nearest I could find was an H van, which does at least have the same basic triangulated chassis as the CIE Palvan:

Comparing widths and heights is a bit more difficult without a drawing of the Palvan.

However, looking at the H van underframe it's clear that the headstock width is similar to the BR Palvan (7'10" vs 7'9") but the buffer spacing is 6'3" compared to BR's 5'7.5".

The H van is 11'5" overall height compared to 11'7.75" on the BR Palvan (quite similar). However, in photos the CIE Palvan seems to be quite a lot taller than the H van. More on this in the subsequent posts when I get onto photos.

 

More to follow in the next post...

[Mol_PMB]

In one of the previous threads, there were some useful CIE Palvan dimensions quoted here:

These seem consistent with the chassis length over headstocks of 16'11", and width over headstocks of 7'10". Compared to the BR version, the interior dimensions are 3" shorter and 3" wider, again consistent with the slightly different proportions of the CIE van. The height of the top of the frame is the same on the CIE and BR Palvans.

The door width of 8'6" is very similar to the BR Palvan's 8'5". The CIE door opening height of 6'0.5" is rather less than the BR Palvan 6'5.5", but this difference may be accounted for by the CIE Palvan's sliding door runner taking up space at the top of the door (the BR vans had hinged doors).

There is still no information on the over-all height.

This photo from Brian Flannigan on Flickr shows the height difference between a CIE Palvan and H van. It's quite striking, as some modellers have noted:

The difference can also be seen (twice) in this photo by Jonathan Allen on Flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52883141960

I reckon the height difference comprises at least 3" in eaves height difference and at least another 3" from the grater arc of the roof. It could be more.

[Mol_PMB]

Now, one thing I had overlooked in the dimensions thread was the drawing linked in this post, which confirms most of what we had before, but still doesn't answer the height question!

 

Now, let's look at the design. The 500 CIE Palvans were built in 1964-1965, a decade after the BR Palvans. They were effectively the last of the 'traditional' unfitted CIE wagons with 10' wheelbase, 16'11" over headstocks and 12t capacity on the triangulated underframe. In 1964/5, construction of wagons was changing over to a new standard of 12' wheelbase, 20' over headstocks and 20t capacity with vacuum brakes, which would be used on a wide range of wagon types including the cement bubbles, flats, ballast hoppers, tanks and various ore wagons.

Given this general change to vacuum-braked wagons it is perhaps surprising that the Palvans were unfitted, with hand brakes only. However, this photo of the wagons under construction does indicate that a vacuum through-pipe was fitted. Photo from Ernie on Flickr. You can see the end of the through pipe below the headstock next to the coupling, and the vertical bars below to the 'dummy' where the end of the vacuum bag would be seated:

The hand brakes on each side of the wagon were independent, but acted on both wheels on that side of the wagon. Note the twin V hangers each side to support the brake weighshafts, and the long brake handle.

This brake arrangement was different to that used on other wagons with the triangulated underframe (e.g. the corrugated open and the H van, each of which had at least two variants themselves).

 

Another design difference from previous wagons with the triangulated underframe was the use of J hanger suspension with auxiliary rubber springs, a feature of the new generation of vacuum braked wagons. However, they retained plain bearing axleboxes rather than moving to roller bearings.

Photos indicate that all the Palvans were fitted with the large diameter self-contained buffers, again providing a contrast with most of the older wagons.

 

[Mol_PMB]

So, now to the variations! There were at least 3 types of end and 2 types of door on the CIE Palvans.

'Irish Railways Today' page 154 tells us 'When these wagons were under construction there was a shortage of standard end section pressings and they were turned out from Inchicore with no fewer than three end designs.'

The lower-numbered vans had corrugated ends in 2 parts, and the doors were plain with a single vertical rib in the middle. This type is shown on 26123 in the CIE official portrait (Doyle&Hirsch etc) and on 26135 in Neil Smith's photo on Flickr here:

It can also be seen in the book 'Irish Railways Today' page 144, on 26338, and on this photo by Jonathan Allen, where the number is indeterminate:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/44798332034

This photo of 26326 by Jonathan Allen is the same, and also very clearly shows that this wagon did not have a vacuum through pipe. Was it never fitted to the earlier Palvans, or had it been removed?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52891772725

Amongst the vans with fully corrugated ends, at least one had a different type of door with external ribs, as seen in this photo from Brian Flannigan on Flickr:

 

Somewhere around 26350, the design of the ends changed from corrugated to flat with an X-shaped reinforcement. 26373 is seen here in a Jonathan Allen photo, with the upper half of the end corrugated and lower half with the X:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52883141960/in/photostream/

And then later, the X-shape was used on both the upper and lower halves, as seen in this photo of 26430 from Brian Flannigan on Flickr. 'Irish Railways Today' page 144, also shows 26458 of this type, and of course the photo of the 3 vans under construction (in the post above) shows this type.

Has anyone else got photos of these with legible numbers, that would help to pin down the number series applicable for each variant of end and door?

[Mol_PMB]

Last post for now on Liveries, and I'll leave the floor open for others.

It appears that all the CIE Palvans were painted in pale grey livery (all over) when first built. An orange broken wheel with white lettering was on the left-hand panel of the door, and the number on the right-hand panel of the door. If the number had been in the normal place on the bodyside it would have been hidden when the door was open. However, some Palvans in grey livery also had the number repeated on the side, including 26185 and 26338. In both cases, the number stencil was in a different font from the number on the door, suggesting that they were applied at different times. 26185 (see post above) also had CIE stencilled above the number on the side. In grey livery, it appears that all other lettering was on the solebar.

Later, the Palvans were painted brown all over. A white broken wheel was on the left-hand panel of the door, and the number on the right-hand panel of the door. In the brown livery, the tare weight was also painted on the door, below the number. Other lettering was on the solebar. There appear to be 2 sizes of broken wheel used on the brown Palvans, see the photos linked above for examples of each.

I haven't yet found any other variants, but they may exist!

 

Cheers,

Mol

 

[minister_for_hardship]

Spotted a very clean palvan on IRRS Flickr with a snail on upper right part of the sliding door, probably a very early one and only worn for a matter of months I'd imagine.

Edited November 5 by minister_for_hardship

[Mol_PMB]

14 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Spotted a very clean palvan on IRRS Flickr with a snail on upper right part of the sliding door, probably a very early one and only worn for a matter of months I'd imagine.

That's rather interesting, I'd agree that a snail on a van type first built in 1964 is a surprise. Could it have been one of the 15 H vans that were fitted with sliding doors? I haven't seen any photos of them, but possibly the suspension and brakes might be a clue to telling them apart from the 'normal' Palvans?

I've found one more Palvan photo on public Flickr, here's 26073 from Jeremy Chapter:

The beet wagons either side have been upgraded with the larger buffers.

[Mol_PMB]

Additionally, this photo appeared on another thread on this forum. No number visible on the Palvan on the right margin, but it has the door with external ribbing. I've no idea how few of these there were.

[Mayner]

6 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Spotted a very clean palvan on IRRS Flickr with a snail on upper right part of the sliding door, probably a very early one and only worn for a matter of months I'd imagine.

18828 the Pallet Van with the snail logo(photo dated 1963) on the IRRS Flickr site is in the same number series as the 1722-19754 series H Vans introduced from 1953 onwards, rather than the 26001 Palvans introduced in 1964.

Doyle and Hirsch talk about 18762-18861 built in 1958 having vacuum brakes fitted 1961/2 and 15 being fitted with sliding doors giving them a similar appearance to the 26001 series vehicles. 18828 is on a fitted version of the 'standard' Bullied wagon underframe with handbrake wheel quite different to the 26001 Palvan underframes

 

[jhb171achill]

11 hours ago, Mayner said:

18828 the Pallet Van with the snail logo(photo dated 1963) on the IRRS Flickr site is in the same number series as the 1722-19754 series H Vans introduced from 1953 onwards, rather than the 26001 Palvans introduced in 1964.

Doyle and Hirsch talk about 18762-18861 built in 1958 having vacuum brakes fitted 1961/2 and 15 being fitted with sliding doors giving them a similar appearance to the 26001 series vehicles. 18828 is on a fitted version of the 'standard' Bullied wagon underframe with handbrake wheel quite different to the 26001 Palvan underframes

 

This would make sense. Any “snail” applied to anything after 1963 would be a surprise indeed, and probably (if it ever existed) some sort of localised “one-off”. Personally, I’m unaware of any such phenomenon!

However, examples of wagons still retaining pre-1963 snails were still to be seen well into the 1970s. 

Edited November 6 by jhb171achill

[Mol_PMB]

I've had a search through my own photos which are mostly too recent for unfitted wagons.

I've only got this one picture of a very sad Palvan - I recall this was in the sidings near Dublin Pearse?

I suppose it does at least show what the metal bits were like in the absence of the plywood panels.

[flange lubricator]

Here are some on a jhb171achill thread

[flange lubricator]

@seagoebox posted these in another thread about the Palvans these give the dimensions except for the height which I would estimate from the other dimensions to be 12ft.

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks, that's very useful to see, though of course the crucial dimension is missing as you say.

Your 12' estimate would make it 7" higher than an H van, which is quite plausible when comparing to photos.

 

I've been trying to learn a bit more about the alternative door design with the external ribs. I looked through two recent books 'Rails through Tipperary' and 'Rails through Wexford' both of which contain plenty of photos of freight trains in the 1970s. There were a total of 23 Palvans pictured (I tried to avoid double-counting when the same train was featured more than once). 

Of those 23, 20 had the normal door, and 3 had the external rib door. Extrapolating that ratio to the complete batch of 500, there would have been about 65 with the external rib door. (Yes, I know there's a statistical margin of error to consider, but the true proportion is still likely to be between 10% and 20%). 

 

So far, the numbers I've got on my list are:

• Corrugated ends, normal door: 26073, 26123, 26135, ..., 26326, 26338
• Corrugated ends, external rib door: 26188 (fits in the gap above)
• Corrugated over X ends, normal door: 26363, 26373
• X over X ends, normal door: 26430, 26458, 26459

 

Incidentally, I learnt from those books that for a period, the beet trains often ran with a few vans as well (Palvans, H vans or ex-GNR vans) carrying beet pulp. 

Mol

 

[flange lubricator]

Some interesting Palvan pictures in this post

[jhb171achill]

16 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Incidentally, I learnt from those books that for a period, the beet trains often ran with a few vans as well (Palvans, H vans or ex-GNR vans) carrying beet pulp. 

Indeed they did. When the wagons were empty, the vans were loaded, when full, vans were empty.

Barry and are preparing a Volume 5 in that series now. Historical background research largely complete, photos selected. Hope to get a good bit done on it over the winter.

[Mol_PMB]

3 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed they did. When the wagons were empty, the vans were loaded, when full, vans were empty.

Barry and are preparing a Volume 5 in that series now. Historical background research largely complete, photos selected. Hope to get a good bit done on it over the winter.

Excellent. I've only just bought the two mentioned above, from the RPSI to give them some support. I've had 'Rails through the West' for a while. What have we got to look forward to next?

[flange lubricator]

17 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks, that's very useful to see, though of course the crucial dimension is missing as you say.

Your 12' estimate would make it 7" higher than an H van, which is quite plausible when comparing to photos.

 

 

I posted this picture by Jonathan Allen from Flickr the palvan behind the loco is pretty much level with the loco which is 12'3

 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Excellent. I've only just bought the two mentioned above, from the RPSI to give them some support. I've had 'Rails through the West' for a while. What have we got to look forward to next?

Broadly south-east-ish! 

[DiveController]

On 5/11/2024 at 11:11 AM, Mol_PMB said:

Inspired by a comment on the Bulleid wagons thread about alternative uses for the triangulated underframe, I thought I'd collate a bit of information on the CIE Palvan here.

This is a topic that has been considered before in various threads so firstly I should acknowledge and link them:

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/3048-cie-palvan/

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/9588-cie-palvan-dimensions/

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/10509-palvans-in-ireland/

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8002-triangular-underframe/

There have also been some very nice models made by various forum members which appear on their own threads. I won't link all of them but feel free to add your own links/photos in this thread. In most cases these models are based on kits for the British Railways Palvan, which has some similarities and some differences from the CIE version.

One of the threads above was about dimensions, which didn't seem to reach a definite conclusion. Here is a drawing of the BR Palvan which the kits represent, from the Barrowmore MRG website: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRFreight1Issue.pdf

Known dimensions for the CIE Palvan are wheelbase 10'0" and length over headstocks 16'11", quoted in 'Irish Railways Today' (Pender & Richards; 1967). So the wheelbase is the same as the BR version, but the CIE body is 7" shorter.

I haven't been able to find any equivalent diagrams/drawings for CIE wagons although I expect they exist somewhere. The nearest I could find was an H van, which does at least have the same basic triangulated chassis as the CIE Palvan:

Comparing widths and heights is a bit more difficult without a drawing of the Palvan.

However, looking at the H van underframe it's clear that the headstock width is similar to the BR Palvan (7'10" vs 7'9") but the buffer spacing is 6'3" compared to BR's 5'7.5".

The H van is 11'5" overall height compared to 11'7.75" on the BR Palvan (quite similar). However, in photos the CIE Palvan seems to be quite a lot taller than the H van. More on this in the subsequent posts when I get onto photos.

 

More to follow in the next post...

Great information . The dimensions you mention amount to no more 1-2mm in 4mm scale, so url;ees we see an rt the 2ft rule would certainly apply to BR based modifications

 

On 5/11/2024 at 11:22 AM, Mol_PMB said:

In one of the previous threads, there were some useful CIE Palvan dimensions quoted here:

These seem consistent with the chassis length over headstocks of 16'11", and width over headstocks of 7'10". Compared to the BR version, the interior dimensions are 3" shorter and 3" wider, again consistent with the slightly different proportions of the CIE van. The height of the top of the frame is the same on the CIE and BR Palvans.

The door width of 8'6" is very similar to the BR Palvan's 8'5". The CIE door opening height of 6'0.5" is rather less than the BR Palvan 6'5.5", but this difference may be accounted for by the CIE Palvan's sliding door runner taking up space at the top of the door (the BR vans had hinged doors).

There is still no information on the over-all height.

This photo from Brian Flannigan on Flickr shows the height difference between a CIE Palvan and H van. It's quite striking, as some modellers have noted:

The difference can also be seen (twice) in this photo by Jonathan Allen on Flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52883141960

I reckon the height difference comprises at least 3" in eaves height difference and at least another 3" from the grater arc of the roof. It could be more.

Palvan's were an interesting little wagon, a firm favorite of mine