"Voiding the Warranty" - Mol's experiments in 21mm gauge

[Flying Snail]

20 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

That’s wonderful, many thanks. I was just thinking I might have to go searching for roadsigns to Quartertown on Google streetview to check the translation!

The space I have for the layout name is 1000mm long and only 70mm high, so I think I’ll have to put the two languages side by side rather than one above the other. Here is an example, not very far from Quartertown, where they were side by side, although one above the other was much more common on the signs:
 

In all cases the Irish comes before the English. 
 

I’ll have another go at some artwork tomorrow - in fact I’ll probably draw up the whole fascia to scale so that I can better judge the overall appearance.

 

I am also formulating a plan for how best to make the signs with the laser-cutter. 

Liberal use of the ol séimhiú there, not to mention the 'fada' - an accent you'll see above vowels (á, é, í, ó, ú).  Also it might be helpful to know when you're making up signs or fonts that in the Irish/Gaelic font in this sign ... the first letter on the first row is a 'G', which is very similar to the first letter on the third row - which is actually a 'T'. The second letter on the first row is an 'A'. The first letter of the second word on the first line is a 'D' (with a 'séimhiú' over it)

and as an aside ... and absolutely nothing to do with this thread - but you'll see on that sign that Kenmare translates to Neidín (pronounced something line 'Nay-deen'), meaning 'the little nest' . This has always struck me as a particularly pretty name. A lot of Irish names can be real tongue twisters, but to my ears Neidín sounds as nice and gentle as the image it invokes

 

 

Edited 23 hours ago by Flying Snail

[Galteemore]

7 hours ago, Flying Snail said:

On the name - Irish translations can be tricky, as the grammar is very different to English. 'Baile' (that's the bit that translates into 'town') is typically at the front as in 'Baile Átha Cliath'. Its also the reason so many Irish placenames that have been anglicised start with Bally.

From the eircode finder website (which is run by An Post, the Irish postal service), 'Quartertown' is translated into 'Baile Na Ceathrún', so thats what I would use.

Mill is translated as 'Muileann' as Galteemore said, and you'll put that in front of the town's name, so I think* it'll become  'Muileann Bhaile Na Ceathrún' - note this adds a 'h' (which is actually a special grammatical construct called a séimhiú) to Baile. 

* Its 30 years since I did Leaving Cert Irish, and I wasn't particularly good at it then, thats why if I was making a bilingual sign I'd probably just do it as 'Quartertown Mill / Baile Na Ceathrún'

 

 

That’s most interesting FS, many thanks. As you can probably guess, we didn’t really touch on Irish at my school….

[Flying Snail]

15 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

That’s most interesting FS, many thanks. As you can probably guess, we didn’t really touch on Irish at my school….

Swings and roundabouts Galtee ... I didn't have to worry about Latin at my school 

[cheesy_peas]

11 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

In all cases the Irish comes before the English. 

One series of IR/IE era white/orange/black nameboards were reversed, English above Irish, an error by the signmakers I'd say.

[Ironroad]

12 hours ago, Flying Snail said:

The dot above the M in the first sign (and above the C in the third one) is actually our friend the 'séimhiú' - when Irish was modernised ini the 60s, the dot was replaced with the 'h'. 

sooooo ....

'Muileann Bhaile Na Ceathrún' would be 'Muileann Ḃaile Na Ceathrún' in GSR days*

*again, there may be grammatical errors in my translations as my Irish is very rusty

Irish was not my forte at school so I stand open to correction, but I think the name Quartertown in Irish is simply " Baile na Ceathrún".  Muileann means mill, so 'Muileann Ḃaile Na Ceathrún' would mean Mill of Quatertown. Note omitting the prefix Muileann means there is no buailte/séimhiú on the B of Baile.  And just to add while I think there may have been additions since I went to school, the letters J, K Q, V, W, X Y & Z, did not exist in the Irish alphabet.

For Irish place names see https://www.logainm.ie/en/s?txt=Quartertown

P.S. the H after the T in Ceathrún, should be omitted and replaced with a buailte as has been pointed out.

Edited 11 hours ago by Ironroad
omission

[Mayner]

10 hours ago, Flying Snail said:

Liberal use of the ol séimhiú there, not to mention the 'fada' - an accent you'll see above vowels (á, é, í, ó, ú).  Also it might be helpful to know when you're making up signs or fonts that in the Irish/Gaelic font in this sign ... the first letter on the first row is a 'G', which is very similar to the first letter on the third row - which is actually a 'T'. The second letter on the first row is an 'A'. The first letter of the second word on the first line is a 'D' (with a 'séimhiú' over it)

and as an aside ... and absolutely nothing to do with this thread - but you'll see on that sign that Kenmare translates to Neidín (pronounced something line 'Nay-deen'), meaning 'the little nest' . This has always struck me as a particularly pretty name. A lot of Irish names can be real tongue twisters, but to my ears Neidín sounds as nice and gentle as the image it invokes

A product of the Irish education system with good grade in Irish when I completed my Leaving Cert 50 years ago I still haven't got my head around the pronounciation and use of the 'fada' and as they say the séimhiú "was in my fathers time" and he spoke about being put off Irish when a new teacher introduced the Munster (Kerry) dialect in a Galway school!

Had fun and games with my Irish (Dub with a country accent) pronouncation of UK and some US placenames but eventually learned to pronounce some Welsh and Kiwi place names correctly mainly by listening to the locals.

Back to Pauls dilemma, I don't think a GSR/CIE style bi-lingual signs board would be appropriate for a private siding, I seem to have mislaid my copy of a 1960 CIE WTT and unable to check the 'official railway" name of the siding. Its possible the Webb family may have sold the mill at some stage following the establishment of the Free State, Quarterstown House had been converted to a convent by the 1940s. Milling was supposed to have ceased by 1957. Cold Chon may not have bothered to advertise their presence signed into a long term contract to supply tar to the nearby Cork County council road depot and the 'mill owners" much incentive to maintain the place.

The Land Commission began to acquire large country estates and divide the land into small holding from the early 1900s onwards, many of the large Country Houses  were sold to religious orders or prominent Irish people during the 20s and 30s as members of the 'gentry' returned to the UK or consolidated their Irish holdings. 

A sign in the style of a Webb Milling sign or seal or a Quarterstown roadsign may be more appropriate. For many years the name of small towns/villages such as quarterstown were displayed on simple square road signs (black border and lettering on white background) in similar style to pre-1960 UK roadsigns https://www.hattons.co.uk/52086/ancorton_models_n_605_pre_1960_s_road_signs_set_5/stockdetail?srsltid=AfmBOorag12QA99NdUrAy8Z3h9lTVW5mF9PelAQm2nv1AqPb7N4_xe34 (without red triangle!) From memory names were sometimes in English or bi lingual cannot find a photo!

 

[Mayner]

29 minutes ago, cheesy_peas said:

One series of IR/IE era white/orange/black nameboards were reversed, English above Irish, an error by the signmakers I'd say.

In good company, apparrently the GSR manged to spell Drumshanbo incorrectly in both Irish and English on the bilingual station nameboard Possibly someone in authority knowing better or failing to check the spelling/pronounciation with the locals

[jhb171achill]

7 minutes ago, Mayner said:

In good company, apparrently the GSR manged to spell Drumshanbo incorrectly in both Irish and English on the bilingual station nameboard Possibly someone in authority knowing better or failing to check the spelling/pronounciation with the locals

Indeed, and their various translations of Bray have all been held to be suspect.

But - to go to a point Mayner made which I had omitted to remember - a private siding would not, indeed, have had any sign on the railway at all, let alone a bilingual one. These were only for railway signage and name boards, particularly in the passenger parts of stations.

By law in Ireland a private company (like a mill) isn’t, and never was, under any compulsion to have bilingual signage, whereas a state utility (like post-nationalisation (1950) CIE) was.

The GSR was never a nationalised utility, but in its station signage it behaved as one, although there were many examples of stations which lasted well into CIE times with original pre-grouping English-only signs.

So for “Mol’s Mill”, the oval device of the milling company would, if strict accuracy is preferred, really be the only show in town.

[Flying Snail]

36 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

Irish was not my forte at school so I stand open to correction, but I think the name Quartertown in Irish is simply " Baile na Ceathrún".  Muileann means mill, so 'Muileann Ḃaile Na Ceathrún' would mean Mill of Quatertown. Note omitting the prefix Muileann means there is no buailte/séimhiú on the B of Baile. 

Thats my understanding too

As for the letters J, K Q, V, W, X Y & Z - I'm pretty sure they still don't formally exist in the Irish alphabet, but you'll see them crop up in loan words and the like - for instance on election posters you'll often see 'Vótail #1' 

Edited 11 hours ago by Flying Snail

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks for all the information - plenty of ideas here!

The attached document is a history of the mill as published in the Mallow Field Club journal in 1991. It only covers the period when it was an active mill, which as John says ended in 1957. 

The involvement of the Webb family ceased in 1912, when the mill was sold to Messrs. Hallinan & Sons. However, the Webb brand was still used until the 1930s, when the Cork Milling Co was formed incorporating several other mills and with Ranks as a shareholder too. In the late 1940s the use of imported grain increased, and this favoured mills near docks - so the Cork Milling Co focused on their newer facility at Victoria Quay in Cork and the other mills were gradually closed - Quartertown in 1957. 

However, Quartertown mill's silos continued to be used for grain storage into the 1960s, and remained rail-served.

Once that ceased, the site was taken over by Roadbinders Ltd. I'm not sure whether they were a subsidiary of Cold Chon or just a customer. The rail connection remained in use for bitumen tanks into the mid 1970s, after which the bitumen traffic was in CIE tank containers, by rail to Mallow and then to Quartertown by road. 

 

For the model, I'm being a bit flexible on timescales to allow me to model the all different traffics (grain, flour, bitumen and perhaps some other sundries) in the 1960 to 1975 period. Also the occasional railtour!

 

So what does that mean for the sign? Let's just be clear - this is a sign on the layout fascia to identify the layout, not a miniature sign to place within the layout. It doesn't have to be 'accurate', it's primarily a decoration.

J & R Webb was long gone by the 1960s, even as a trade name. The oval seal is nice, but represents the wrong period - that old letter was sent in 1866 not 1966.

The Quartertown Mill name (in English) has endured to the present day, and that's what I'm calling the layout, so I definitely want to incorporate that. 

The mill and settlement here seems to have been ancient - with records back to the 1400s, so it would be nice to acknowledge the history and the country in which the layout is set by presenting the name in Irish as well as English. Thanks to all of those who have offered increasingly accurate translations!

 

I'll do some more artwork tonight or tomorrow and make another proposition for comment.

Quartertown_Mill_Mallow_Field_Club_1991.docx

[Mol_PMB]

More imagery...

An old J & R Webb flour sack - but the imagery seems to combine American and Australian(?) flags - maybe the source of the imported grain? Not really telling the Irish part of the story.

 

Cork Milling Company - new silos at the Victoria Quay mill in 1936. The locations of their other mills are mentioned below the image.

 

[cheesy_peas]

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks! I've seen the photo before but the text has some useful info. The part of the mill that the train crashed into would be just off the end of my model - it had been substantially rebuilt after the accident. This is the view from the other side:

The siding to Quartertown Mill was only opened in 1864 so the crash that February must have been very early in its life. 

 

It's also good to confirm the closure date as 10th October 1976 - I knew it was mid-1970s but didn't have an exact date. That will help to justify my supertrain-liveried 141 class when representing the later years!

Edited 8 hours ago by Mol_PMB
correcting typo

[Georgeconna]

On 29/11/2025 at 10:02 PM, Mol_PMB said:

This evening's work is most of a kit for the oldest mill building on the layout. 

I still need to do the roof, some internal bracing and small parts like windowsills, doors and window frames.

This shows how the two layers of the front overlay:

This is all laser-cut from 1.5mm card. I'm trying to decide the order of assembly, particularly with reference to:

• sealing the card
• painting the parts
• assembling the shell
• assembling the outer skin

My gut feel is that the outer skin should go on after most of the painting is complete, as this will make it much easier to have the window frames in a contrasting colour.

And that then of course raises the question - what colour? All the old photos are black and white, and don't show much of this building anyway. 

The more recent scheme was black outer frames, and red doors, red blanking panels for the windows. I doubt it would have been like that when the mill was in use. Any suggestions for a paint scheme?

 

That laser cut stone has come out remarkably well.

[Mol_PMB]

43 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

That laser cut stone has come out remarkably well.

Many thanks! The texture was added with matte medium dabbed on. I didn't do all the ground floor as it will be invisible once the canopy is fitted!

[Mol_PMB]

My next attempt. I've drawn up what's planned for the fascia and then superimposed it on a photo of the layout. I'm currently thinking of a dark grey rather than pure black.

The Irish text is a first attempt using an available font, except for the B which I had to draw myself as the one in the font was completely unlike the GSR one. The GSR itself was inconsistent in whether the 'tall' letters were the same height as the others. 

The blank panel on the right hides the sector plate, and I am considering using this area to display a few photos of the real location.

I've mulling over the idea of something on the lower fascia (maybe the oval Webb seal) but the lower fascia is much closer to the scenery and it might be better to leave it plain.

 

Comments/ideas welcome!

[Galteemore]

Looks great Paul. I agree that the lower bit would look better left plain. I think the Irish signage is great for shows and will show it’s not your usual SLT or BR depot! On the RH panel a photo or two and simple route map would look well 

[Mol_PMB]

Just now, Galteemore said:

Looks great Paul. I agree that the lower bit would look better left plain. I think the Irish signage is great for shows and will show it’s not your usual SLT or BR depot! On the RH panel a photo or two and simple route map would look well 

A route map - that's a great idea! I think there are three really 'good' photos so a route map would nicely fill the fourth quarter of the square. These are the three photos I'd probably use, I'm still looking for more though!