"Voiding the Warranty" - Mol's experiments in 21mm gauge

[Mol_PMB]

It's photos like this one in the NLI archive that make me want a variety of goods vans, rather than a whole train of the IRM H vans (which are, admittedly, superb models).

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305732

We're at Tullamore in 1961.

On the left, the nearest van is an H, followed by a former GNR 1950s 12-ton cement van, then some opens and another H at the end.

On the right, a GNR 9-ton van, then a GNR ventilated vac fitted van, then a GSWR 'Big Boy'. A gap, then another GSWR 'Big Boy' and an H van. Another gap, three cattle wagons and then in the distance is a GSR bulk grain van.

There are at least 3 different types of open wagon as well, with 6-plank opens on both wooden and steel underframes, and a Bulleid corrugated too.

What a variety! It's not like this is a massive marshalling yard, it's a mediocre main-line station and we're only looking at the contents of 2 sidings.

 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

It's photos like this one in the NLI archive that make me want a variety of goods vans, rather than a whole train of the IRM H vans (which are, admittedly, superb models).

....................................................

On the left, the nearest van is an H, followed by a former GNR 1950s 12-ton cement van, then some opens and another H at the end.

On the right, a GNR 9-ton van, then a GNR ventilated vac fitted van, then a GSWR 'Big Boy'. A gap, then another GSWR 'Big Boy' and an H van. Another gap, three cattle wagons and then in the distance is a GSR bulk grain van.

There are at least 3 different types of open wagon as well, with 6-plank opens on both wooden and steel underframes, and a Bulleid corrugated too.

What a variety! It's not like this is a massive marshalling yard, it's a mediocre main-line station and we're only looking at the contents of 2 sidings.

 

Precisely why oul wans like me cannot, will not, and never could have got fired up by a Ballina timber train having 11 identical bogies instead of 12, an ICR with 4 carriages instead of 3 or 5, a yellow plant machine on rails, or an orange 071 instead of a grey one! Bah Humbug!

[David Holman]

Couldn't agree more! Variety is the spice of life and while standardisation, container traffic and multiple units must make sense economically, most of the fun in watching trains has gone when you know beforehand what they will look like, number of wagons, coaches etc.

 A while ago, there was a train spotting series on TV and all they had to get excited about was liveries, because the stock was essentially all the same. Ok, sweeping generalisation, but you know what I mean...

 Northport Quay, despite only being able to accommodate two six wheel coaches and a van (or equivalent wagons) offers 10 trains over two periods and each one is different, with nothing duplicated in each line up = more stuff to enjoy and make.

 Works for me, anyway!

 That said, you only have to look at layouts like Ballinacraig to see that modern image modelling can still be fabulous.

Edited May 31 by David Holman

[Mol_PMB]

Here's a step-by-step guide to regauging a fitted H van; having done a few now I've learnt what needs to be done and what can be avoided.

Firstly remove the chassis from the body - a guitar pick inserted just inside one of the bodysides will do this quite easily. You can leave the chassis attached to the metal floor.

Now use some sharp side cutters to cut through the brake cross-stretchers on both sides of the longitudinal link between them. You can now remove the wheelsets. Upper chassis = before, lower = after. 

Next, use fine pliers to grasp the block at the top of a brake hanger. Twist it, rotating gently side-to-side until you hear the glue give way. Repeat for the others.

Now, carefully use a scalpel as a gentle lever to lift the brake hanger out of its hole. You're not trying to cut through the peg, the brake hanger should come out intact:

Now you should have something like this:

For the outer brake hangers, you need to make new mounting holes to suit the 21mm gauge wheels. This is tricky - start with a tiny drill in a pin vice and work up to the right size for the pegs. The inner brake hangers don't need new holes, they can be pushed into the gap between the old hole and the diagonal frame member. 

The next step is to deal with the buffer spacing (sigh...). Firmly pull the buffers and they will come out, try not to lose the springs:

Using a length of 2mm metal rod, insert this into the buffer surround and wiggle it side to side until the buffer comes off:

Usuallt the plastic shears off almost flush, but if the glue is a bit weak then the square shank comes out with the buffer.

Now your bufferbeam will look like one of these:

If you have a square hole, fill it with some plastic strip. Otherwise it will be very difficult to drill the new holes in the right place. 

Then, use some microstrip to fill each end of the bufferbeam channel outboard of the former buffers. Once the glue has set, sand it all down flat, flush with the front face of the bufferbeam channel:

Mark new buffer holes at the correct spacing (25mm) and drill out to about 1mm diameter. Now you need some new buffer bases, which could be bits of microstrip but I made some etched ones in a spare corner of my E410 body etch:

 

more to follow in the next post...

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Next, drill out the buffer holes to 1.5mm, then stick the buffer bodies back in place, making sure they are straight and square.

Add a pair of 21mm gauge wheelsets to assist in positioning the brakes.

Then, you can re-instate the brake hangers, into their new holes. I didn't stick them in place just yet.

As you can see, the regauging has left a gap in the middle of each brake cross-stretcher. I chose to cut some 20mm lengths of wire and glue them across this gap - it's not a perfect solution but I don't think anyone's going to be looking too closely when the wagon is in service. Whilst gluing these, if necessary you can tweak the position of the brake hangers so that they don't touch the wheels. A dab of glue on the tops of the brake hangers will secure them in the right place. Make sure the wheels spin freely. 

(pic)

I decided not to reinstate the links across the axles - they're almost invisible from normal viewing angles and they prevent the wheels being removed.

Now to the buffer heads. The buffer shanks may have become partly blocked by glue. If so, use a 0.7mm drill (exactly) drill to clear them out. 

Then push the buffers (with springs) firmly back into place.

Now check the fit of the body corner stanchions over the repositioned buffers. It may necessary to file a little material off them to achieve a good fit.

Then re-fit the body, which is harder than you might think and the guitar pick will help. 

If any other small bits have fallen off, stick them back on.

There's a little bit of paintwork to touch up, otherwise it's done.

 

 

 

[David Holman]

The detail on the underframes is rather splendid. Fair bit of work need to regauge, but definitely worth it.

[Mol_PMB]

7 minutes ago, David Holman said:

The detail on the underframes is rather splendid. Fair bit of work need to regauge, but definitely worth it.

Indeed, it’s a lot more work than the unfitted versions, which is why I thought a description of what I did might be useful. The first one I did, I took way too many bits off that I didn’t need to. 
Overall, it’s not too bad to convert, and there’s much less to do if the buffers don’t bother you. 

[Horsetan]

17 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

....Add a pair of 21mm gauge wheelsets.....

.

 

What tube are you using as axle sleeves?

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

What tube are you using as axle sleeves?

Good question. It's brass and I think these are 2mm ID 3mm OD. They look a bit chunky but are stronger than the 2mm ID 2.5mm OD.

Of course you can re-use the IRM axles but in my experience not the wheels, as the tread is too wide to get a 19.2mm BTB. The IRM axles from these vans will be re-wheeled (with Gibson EM wheels) and probably turn up under my next wagon project.

 

[Mol_PMB]

A van of many colours - the IRM 'H':

While I continue working on regauging the underframes I have also been repainting and lettering some of the bodies. These still need some matt varnish and then the weathering will begin.

17053 will ride on the conventional underframe I built from Parkside parts (so it's no longer an H) while I plan to scratchbuild a new body for the spare underframe, to represent one of the 15 H vans converted to a Palvan prototype.

[flange lubricator]

Very interesting stuff one of the details I spotted in a picture of a grey H van in the 1970’s from Jonathan Allen is a painted handbrake wheel possibly yellow which is very unusual this might add an unusual detail to your repaints . 

 

Edited June 3 by flange lubricator

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

Very interesting stuff one of the details I spotted in a picture of a grey H van in the 1970’s from Jonathan Allen is a painted handbrake wheel possibly yellow which is very unusual this might add an unusual detail. 

 

Interesting. 18778 was one of the supposedly green ones (at one time), though whether it actually was painted green is far from certain. 

There's another shot of the same van on the same day here, which shows that it has lost its vac pipe (despite still saying vav brake on the side) and has also lost its end ventilator hood. A fair few patches on the bodywork too!

I may well renumber the two that have so far retained their IRM numbers, and 18778 with its painted brake wheel might be a good candidate.

Some of these vans also received strips across the roof in later life and I might do that modification on the brown one - photos show 18731 ended up in that condition.

 

The nearly black ones were scarce but I have identified three in photos, here's 18861 which I have chosen to model:

 

[Mol_PMB]

As ever, I am trying to do too many things at once! 

When I’ve got this batch of vans finished, I ought to go back to some of my unfinished projects like E407, two more wooden open wagons and the 20’ flat wagons. 

But I’ve also got six secondhand IRM cement bubbles in stock, all grey ones, and all wrong, needing some attention to backdate them to what bubbles really did look like when they were grey. They are calling me to rip them apart, regauge and modify to make them right! My OCD is troubled… 

Maybe in a couple of weeks time I’ll deal with the bubbles and create a nice mid-60s cement train.

[Mol_PMB]

While waiting for some paint to dry on the H van chassis, I'm having a go at voiding the warranty on a bubble. 

So far, it has come apart fairly easily with the only major problem being the brake safety loops - which I won't need for the 1965 batch bubble which this will become.

[derek]

7 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

While waiting for some paint to dry on the H van chassis, I'm having a go at voiding the warranty on a bubble. 

So far, it has come apart fairly easily with the only major problem being the brake safety loops - which I won't need for the 1965 batch bubble which this will become.

Ha ha, do you ever sit still Paul? "While waiting for the paint to dry?". Why don't you just wait patiently for it to dry like the rest of us mere mortals? 

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, derek said:

Ha ha, do you ever sit still Paul? "While waiting for the paint to dry?". Why don't you just wait patiently for it to dry like the rest of us mere mortals? 

Haha! I could probably do with a bit more patience!

 

Having torn apart the bubble and made a start on regauging it, I've realised that I need a different type of bearing. So I've put that to ones side and done some more work on the H vans.

I now have 6 bodies with all the detailing, painting and lettering complete, and ready for weathering.

I also have 4 chassis complete and painted, also ready for weathering.

3 more chassis are progressing well through the re-gauging process.

And I've been measuring up a Parkside palvan body as the basis of an 'H' palvan body to go on the spare chassis. Note, this isn't going to be a 'normal' palvan, but one of the prototypes converted from fitted H vans.

 

 

 

[Auto-Train Original]

On 3/6/2025 at 5:09 PM, Mol_PMB said:

A van of many colours - the IRM 'H':

While I continue working on regauging the underframes I have also been repainting and lettering some of the bodies. These still need some matt varnish and then the weathering will begin.

17053 will ride on the conventional underframe I built from Parkside parts (so it's no longer an H) while I plan to scratchbuild a new body for the spare underframe, to represent one of the 15 H vans converted to a Palvan prototype.

I have never seen the Green CIE Van with the Black ends. What's the story with that wagon?

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, Auto-Train Original said:

I have never seen the Green CIE Van with the Black ends. What's the story with that wagon?

Have a read of this thread...

 

[Mol_PMB]

Work in progress on the prototype palvan, shown alongside the green H van for comparison:

The basic body shape is done now, based on parts from the Parkside BR palvan kit which has become a bit wider and shorter to match the Bulleid triangulaed underframe. 

The ends from the kit are almost right for the prototype CIE palvan, except the curve of the roof which I have altered to match the H van. The production CIE palvans had quite different ends (and several variants of them too).

Next steps are to add the reinforcing strips on the door, and the door handles and door stops. The chassis needs a little more work but is nearly there. 

 

I'm only aware of two photos of these prototype palvans; there were apparently 15 of them.

A clear photo of one van in a rake of three brand new in green livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510273317

A single van in the background of an image dated 1972, by which time it was painted grey but the photo isn't clear enough to show whether it had a snail or a roundel, or what number it was:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435292

I'm undecided on which colour the model will be - I quite fancy the grey variant so I can run it with some 'normal' Palvans when IRM make them, but I have better info on the lettering of the green one and it would pair nicely with my green H van.

 

Any more info on the prototypes would be very welcome!

[Mol_PMB]

The body is now ready for cleaning and painting. Still a few details to add to the chassis.

Whilst I'm expecting IRM to produce the production series Palvans (26000 series), I'd be surprised if they do one of these prototypes. But by sod's law, it will be announced the moment I've finished this one...

I still haven't decided whether it will be grey or green, but a coat of grey primer is the first move whichever.

[flange lubricator]

Great work on the van I think it unlikely that IRM would do this prototype van as there were so few of them even pictures are rare ,if they were doing palvans they would most likely do the 26001 type which were more common. 

[Mol_PMB]

Minor update on the prototype Palvan, which now has both body and chasses complete and in grey primer.

Ciarán has very kindly provided me with a high-quality scan of the photo which has a grey one in the background, and whilst still not 100% clear it gives me enough clues to work out the livery and lettering style. So my prototype palvan will be finished in grey. Not the very pale grey used with the roundels, but the mid-pale grey latterly used with snails - it is clearly different in shade from the adjacent normal palvans.

One marking that is clear in the image is the 'Vac Brake' stencil, which is in the style applied in the mid-1960s on the pale grey/roundel livery. 

The location of the number on the door is also visible, the same as on the green prototype palvan (but not quite the same as the production palvans). The number is not legible so I will either have to use the number from the green one, or guess! 

There does not seem to be any logo, either a snail or a roundel, and given what I can see I think it would be visible if it was there (certainly the roundels on the adjacent normal palvans are obvious). There was a brief transition period between the two in the early 1960s when neither was used; road vehicles and containers had block letters C.I.E. but locos, carriages and some wagons emerged without a logo in this period - and it's quite plausible this prototype palvan was repainted at that time. 

That's probably too much detail, but I'll be quiet for a few days now as I'm about to arrive in Scotland for a few busy days working.