Fred Graham Clockwork Models

[Galteemore]

Many years ago I was brought to see Fred Graham’s clockwork layout / think Drew Donaldson but GNR. When Fred downsized, we bought some of his models, quickly loaning them to a museum. So I haven’t seen them for years, but this week they returned to family custody  and I was sent some pics. The blue is original Dundalk paint. Should I try a 36.75 conversion @David Holman? The bubble wrap holds a 5” gauge S class…..

Edited March 8 by Galteemore

[seagoebox]

David,

I have two of Fred's loco models, and a couple of GNR(I) coaches.......

[Galteemore]

Lovely, Michael. Had a vague memory you did. Bizarrely, the images arrived on the very day I was putting my first ever GN 4-4-0 back together after painting. It’s an etched kit but Fred’s work matches what any kit designer can churn out. 

2 minutes ago, seagoebox said:

David,

I have two of Fred's loco models, and a couple of GNR(I) coaches.......

 

[jhb171achill]

Mighty stuff indeed!

He's got the "real" GN blue - even Cyril Fry wasn't able to manage that!

[Patrick Davey]

Wowzers!

[Mayner]

In one of his letters' magazine articles in the early 70s Drew wrote about a friend who modelled the GNR Main Line in the 50s and used BCDR locos to represent Railcar workings. Drew's view was that nobody was interested in watching railcars.

Is it possible that Fred Graham the modeller that Drew was referring to are there any BCDR locos in the collection?

[Galteemore]

17 minutes ago, Mayner said:

In one of his letters' magazine articles in the early 70s Drew wrote about a friend who modelled the GNR Main Line in the 50s and used BCDR locos to represent Railcar workings. Drew's view was that nobody was interested in watching railcars.

Is it possible that Fred Graham the modeller that Drew was referring to are there any BCDR locos in the collection?

Absolutely so John- that’s Fred. We also have a BCDR tank loco that Fred built -  one of the large 4-4-2Ts. Don’t have a pic. He also did a fine WT class. 

Edited March 8 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

My word, they look stunning! Give every impression they would be happy on fine scale track too.

 The bubble wrap needs to come off the S so it can be fired up immediately - though suspect it's a bit more complex than that...

 Was in a junk shop in Rye today, idly musing over some Hornby tinplate. Horribly crude, but not without charm. These models compare very well with the best that is available today. 

 Looking forward to finding out more.

[Horsetan]

We don't hear much about clockwork models nowadays but, many years ago, the Norman Eagles layout was one of the best-known. 

[Galteemore]

3 hours ago, Horsetan said:

We don't hear much about clockwork models nowadays but, many years ago, the Norman Eagles layout was one of the best-known. 

Indeed it was. I remember being awed by pictures of it when I was a child. Drew Donaldson was convinced clockwork would make a comeback. It does have the ‘authenticity ’ of having an  onboard, finite source of power, like the real thing. Also requires some skill in loco management.
 

Having seen Fred and Drew’s stuff, even the Palitoy Mainline stuff of the late 70s seemed really anodyne. Nothing quite like the roar and sheer mass of a heavy clockwork train moving at speed - captures something of the physical presence of the real thing that DCC sound (due, I suspect, to such physical constraints as the Doppler effect) cannot. Google a video of ‘Hornby O gauge clockwork’ and see what I mean. Oddly enough I always found that running Hornby Dublo on a hard floor produced a similar effect. 

Edited March 9 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

 I believe the correct term should be 'spring drive' - or something like that. I think 'clockwork' was seen as being toy like, whereas models like these are marvels of miniature engineering.

 Some of the spring drives were pretty powerful and driving them was akin to live steam in some ways, while such was the efficiency/predictability of the best mechanisms that you could be fairly optimistic that a set number of turns of the key would give you a specific length of run.

 Whether spring drive would work on the small, terminus-fiddle yard layouts of today is another matter. Will these wonderful models be visiting Enniskillen as some point? It is a great place for some photos!

[murrayec]

I have repaired several clockwork locos for a client, mainly replacing broken springs- a lot of work and not for the faint-hearted, the spring packs some punch if it gets free while dissembling the mechanism!

Eoin

[Horsetan]

43 minutes ago, David Holman said:

 I believe the correct term should be 'spring drive' - or something like that. I think 'clockwork' was seen as being toy like, whereas models like these are marvels of miniature engineering.

 Some of the spring drives were pretty powerful and driving them was akin to live steam in some ways, while such was the efficiency/predictability of the best mechanisms that you could be fairly optimistic that a set number of turns of the key would give you a specific length of run.

 Whether spring drive would work on the small, terminus-fiddle yard layouts of today is another matter. ...

Clockwork is probably more exacting than other systems as it doesn't have the same kind of control that you have with electric/electronic systems, so acceleration and braking - which you can do at will anywhere electrically - isn't so easy.

Some have invested considerable effort in the larger scales

I think it would be particularly effective in the context of a FREMO modular network, where some very long runs are possible.

 

 

[leslie10646]

Rhubarb, Ivan.

Drew Donaldson had a working timetable which told the operator exactly how many turns of the key were needed with "x" locomotive pulling "n" coaches / wagons from "A to B".

True the trains took off like a Southern Electric, but they rolled delightfully to a halt at the arrival station. Mind you, shunting with clockwork was a challenge.

Then, if he was running a particularly heavy train, Drew would call out to the station operator - "Box her 'til she bangs!!!". Meaning until even with an iron grip you can't squeeze the spring any more.

[Galteemore]

18 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Clockwork is probably more exacting than other systems as it doesn't have the same kind of control that you have with electric/electronic systems, so acceleration and braking - which you can do at will anywhere electrically - isn't so easy.

Some have invested considerable effort in the larger scales

I think it would be particularly effective in the context of a FREMO modular network, where some very long runs are possible.

 

 

Walker Fenn motors in the 30s used gramophone-sourced governors which acted as a regulator - speed could be adjusted to allow some precision. Drew certainly regarded some mechanisms as more suitable than others for shunting, given the demands that frequent stopping/starting imposed. Drew’s system, as Leslie remarks, was very precise. Locos and loads were adjusted by ‘boxes’ - the number of turns of the spring necessary to take a train precisely to a given point. It was far from unknown for Dublin enginemen to appear at Drew’s house to admire the operation.

Edited March 9 by Galteemore

[Horsetan]

7 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

Rhubarb, Ivan.

Drew Donaldson had a working timetable which told the operator exactly how many turns of the key were needed with "x" locomotive pulling "n" coaches / wagons from "A to B".

True the trains took off like a Southern Electric, but they rolled delightfully to a halt at the arrival station. Mind you, shunting with clockwork was a challenge.

Then, if he was running a particularly heavy train, Drew would call out to the station operator - "Box her 'til she bangs!!!". Meaning until even with an iron grip you can't squeeze the spring any more.

Still not quite the same as being able to accelerate and brake at will.

[jhb171achill]

Brings back memories.

My introduction to model railways was the 160 foot circuit in the attic of our stable, on Senior’s 1930s tinplate layout. I was about 11.

Big clockwork engines rattling round a barn with un-insulated track on wooden boards, and clattering coaches clicketty-clacking behind them….. to do one full circuit, you’d wind the loco fully, and it would just about coast to a halt at the right spot. Heavy trains, as in real life, had to be double-headed. The best option was an old 0.4.0 tender loco which was an absolute flying machine and could haul pretty much anything you put behind it….

Edited March 16 by jhb171achill

[Mol_PMB]

On 8/3/2025 at 9:25 PM, jhb171achill said:

Mighty stuff indeed!

He's got the "real" GN blue - even Cyril Fry wasn't able to manage that!

'Britomart' on the Ffestiniog Railway is still mostly painted in real GN blue. There have been a few repairs that have had to be touched up with a substitute paint but the livery is mostly still the 1960s paint (from when it was first preserved), which was liberated from Dundalk. 

  

[jhb171achill]

Didn’t know that! But it certainly looks the part!

[Horsetan]

5 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

'Britomart' on the Ffestiniog Railway is still mostly painted in real GN blue. There have been a few repairs that have had to be touched up with a substitute paint but the livery is mostly still the 1960s paint (from when it was first preserved), which was liberated from Dundalk. 

  

This all demonstrates that the colour shade changes depending on the ambient light available....

[Mol_PMB]

45 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

This all demonstrates that the colour shade changes depending on the ambient light available....

There's also 60+ years between those two pictures, so the effect of fading, polishing, perhaps a re-varnish.