Gauge of interest: Alphagraphix 4mm Irish kits

[GSR 800]

Was talking to Roger at Alphagraphix, inquiring regarding the viability of making 4mm etches of the many 7mm Irish kits he has.

From Roger:

"To make the project viable for us we'd need to have definite orders for at least six of every vehicle/loco kit in advance to make the order worthwhile. Additionally we're not in a position to supply the necessary cast parts as we only have patterns for the 7mm versions."

I was personally considering the following 

CIE/GSR J18 (I'd order two so four left)

MGWR Luggage Van 'The Hearse' (Again, I'd order two)

The Ivatt F6 (would order one)

Along either considering some of the other MGWR rolling stock and locos.

 

Many of the cast parts could likely be 3d printed.

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks for having the discussion. I guess the challenge is to find enough people with similar interests!

From the range, I’d be more interested in MGWR 6-wheel coaches and, maybe, a J30. 

[Killian Keane]

I would have one of the MGWR Elf class for sure, probably a J30 too

[Tullygrainey]

We explored this once before but I think because our collective interests are so diverse, we didn't manage to get the numbers for any one thing. Worth another go though.

 

 

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, Tullygrainey said:

We explored this once before but I think because our collective interests are so diverse, we didn't manage to get the numbers for any one thing. Worth another go though.

 

 

I'll add one to any MGWR order, two in the case of the J18 and the Hearse

So +1 Elf

+1 onto MGWR coaches 

[Sea Breezer]

I’d go in for an MGWR Elf and a GNRI JT

[Horsetan]

J30, please

[Mayner]

An important point to check with Roger is whether a 4mm loco chassis produced from 7mm artwork/photo tooling will be suitable for a OO gauge loco. 

The width over chassis on a 4mm loco produced from re-sized 7mm/Gauge 0 artwork may be too wide for OO.

Alternatives would be: (a) to re-design the existing chassis so that its suitable for OO gauge (width over frames 12mm) or (b) the buyer purchasing proprietary etched or turned frame spacers and assembling the chassis as a conventional chassis.

Although my 4mm MGW vans were designed to be assembled to OO or 21mm gauge, it was necessary to re-design the chassis when I re-scaled the artwork to 2mm scale for a customer.

[Adam Berry]

I would interested in a J18, depending on price and it's quality of course! Any chance of a Bandon tank?

[Mayner]

Studio Scale Models already produce a 4mm model of a Bandon Tank both roundtopped and Belpair firebox versions. https://www.studio-scale-models.com/B4.shtml

 

[Adam Berry]

19 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Studio Scale Models already produce a 4mm model of a Bandon Tank both roundtopped and Belpair firebox versions. https://www.studio-scale-models.com/B4.shtml

 

Your dead right, still though, its a nickle silver kit so how different is it from a brass one? and is he still taking commissions? 

Either way the J28 sounds interesting, always good to see more kits on the market.

Edited Thursday at 23:30 by Adam Berry

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, Adam Berry said:

Your dead right, still though, its a nickle silver kit so how different is it from a brass one? and is he still taking commissions? 

Either way the J28 sounds interesting, always good to see more kits on the market.

Nickle silver basically a superior material to work, basically stronger, easier to solder and easier to paint compared to brass.

Best contact Des on availability, Studio Scale models traditionally held kits in stock though may have shifted to supplying kits to order.

Des supplied tender etchs and castings at relatively short notice for a GSWR 52 Class 4-4-0 I produced several years ago.

 

[David Holman]

Roger's 7mm scale kits feature a one piece etched chassis. Have mentioned before that you solder in the bearings, then simply fold the sides and spacers. They are designed for 32mm gauge, so you fit the top hat bearings inside out for broad gauge. Never had any problems with clearances for splashers and other bodywork, so presume things should be ok in 4mm.

 However, if there are no castings, what you will get is the same as with Worsley Works, so that means sourcing or making everything from chimney, dome, buffers, cab details, whistle tender axle boxes, brake standard, etc, etc.

 Without wanting to rain on anyone's parade, finding such things is a lot harder now than it was ten or even 20 years ago, when there were many more whitemetal and brass castings available, though 3D printed options may be possible now.

[Mol_PMB]

David,

Many thanks for the info. From my point of view, the width of the frames won’t be a huge problem (as I’m working in 21mm) but may be an issue for those wanting 16.5mm as John says. 
However, it sounds like the chassis makes no provision for springing or compensation so I’d have that challenge instead. 
 

Noted the challenge of castings; wheels also these days.
 

Have you built any of the 6-wheel coach kits in 7mm scale? Any views on how the undergear of those might scale down? 
 

Many thanks,

Paul

[Galteemore]

21 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

David,

Many thanks for the info. From my point of view, the width of the frames won’t be a huge problem (as I’m working in 21mm) but may be an issue for those wanting 16.5mm as John says. 
However, it sounds like the chassis makes no provision for springing or compensation so I’d have that challenge instead. 
 

Noted the challenge of castings; wheels also these days.
 

Have you built any of the 6-wheel coach kits in 7mm scale? Any views on how the undergear of those might scale down? 
 

Many thanks,

Paul

It’s a fairly simple but clever system of wires and brackets, which should work equally well. The 2-4-0 and 2-4-2T designs have a basic sprung pony truck arrangement. The 2-2-2T has a most unusual springing arrangement with a flexible piece of brass.

[Mol_PMB]

47 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

It’s a fairly simple but clever system of wires and brackets, which should work equally well. The 2-4-0 and 2-4-2T designs have a basic sprung pony truck arrangement. The 2-2-2T has a most unusual springing arrangement with a flexible piece of brass.

Super, many thanks for the info. Looks good. 

[GSR 800]

5 hours ago, David Holman said:

Roger's 7mm scale kits feature a one piece etched chassis. Have mentioned before that you solder in the bearings, then simply fold the sides and spacers. They are designed for 32mm gauge, so you fit the top hat bearings inside out for broad gauge. Never had any problems with clearances for splashers and other bodywork, so presume things should be ok in 4mm.

 However, if there are no castings, what you will get is the same as with Worsley Works, so that means sourcing or making everything from chimney, dome, buffers, cab details, whistle tender axle boxes, brake standard, etc, etc.

 Without wanting to rain on anyone's parade, finding such things is a lot harder now than it was ten or even 20 years ago, when there were many more whitemetal and brass castings available, though 3D printed options may be possible now.

Roger mentioned that he had successfully downscaled a Hunslet kit to 4mm, but will email him regarding this to confirm suitability for 00.

I do agree cast parts are becoming increasingly scarce as many of the old British manufacturers either close or will no longer send to the Republic. I'm making inquiries regarding 3d printed parts.

Something I've found trouble with is getting bogies for the laminates; Dart castings no longer sending parts here due to GSPR. 

 

 

[Galteemore]

Big shout out for FK3D, a 3d printer who have done Irish stuff for me. Very helpful and reasonable. No connection other than satisfied customer etc 

Edited yesterday at 13:57 by Galteemore

[Horsetan]

9 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Big shout out for FK3D, a 3d printer who have done Irish stuff for me. Very helpful and reasonable. No connection other than satisfied customer etc 

Do they already have drawings, or do you have to supply?

[Galteemore]

7 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Do they already have drawings, or do you have to supply?

These were off BP drawings I supplied. But they may be able to work off dimensions 

[GSR 800]

56 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Big shout out for FK3D, a 3d printer who have done Irish stuff for me. Very helpful and reasonable. No connection other than satisfied customer etc 

Interestingly I was just looking at their offeringgs for Buffet Car interiors! 

What's the dome and chimney off?

 

 

[Galteemore]

5 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

Interestingly I was just looking at their offeringgs for Buffet Car interiors! 

What's the dome and chimney off?

 

 

[Killian Keane]

10 hours ago, David Holman said:

However, if there are no castings, what you will get is the same as with Worsley Works, so that means sourcing or making everything from chimney, dome, buffers, cab details, whistle tender axle boxes, brake standard, etc, etc.

I for one would be more than happy to 3d print in resin the necessary parts to complete the kits, providing the relevant reference material drawings etc was supplied

[Andy Cundick]

17 hours ago, Adam Berry said:

Your dead right, still though, its a nickle silver kit so how different is it from a brass one? and is he still taking commissions? 

Either way the J28 sounds interesting, always good to see more kits on the market.

The Bandon tank is a nice easy one to do having built two of them,also Nickel Silver is much nicer to work with.As for which of the Alphagrafix kits to go for wouldn't it make more sense to go for just one to start with and go from there.i'd would be up for any of them Andy

[Mayner]

I agree with Andy that it would be best to start out with re-scaling one kit to 4mm both in terms of identifying any pitfalls in rescaling a model from 7-4mm scale and overwhelming the (very small) market for 4mm Irish outline kits.

I usually managed to sell a minimum of 10 JM Design kits on the initial production run, though demand/sales for the MGWR Vans and the 4w Bulleid PO Van were significantly lower than other kits.

A 4mm Alphagraphix J26 would largely duplicate the SSM MGW E Class/J26, the Alphagraphix kit appears to be based on a loco in late GSR/CIE condition with riveted smokebox, while the SSM kit in includes parts to assemble a loco in MGW/GSR condition with flush smokebox and parts to assemble the Tramore version of the loco with extended cab and recessed cab steps, so something of a Catch 22 situation, though I prepared an etched overlay for a riveted J26 smokebox. 

A J18/19 has been on my to do list for 40 years, so I'll put my hand up for two.

John

 

[GSR 800]

4 hours ago, Mayner said:

I agree with Andy that it would be best to start out with re-scaling one kit to 4mm both in terms of identifying any pitfalls in rescaling a model from 7-4mm scale and overwhelming the (very small) market for 4mm Irish outline kits.

I usually managed to sell a minimum of 10 JM Design kits on the initial production run, though demand/sales for the MGWR Vans and the 4w Bulleid PO Van were significantly lower than other kits.

A 4mm Alphagraphix J26 would largely duplicate the SSM MGW E Class/J26, the Alphagraphix kit appears to be based on a loco in late GSR/CIE condition with riveted smokebox, while the SSM kit in includes parts to assemble a loco in MGW/GSR condition with flush smokebox and parts to assemble the Tramore version of the loco with extended cab and recessed cab steps, so something of a Catch 22 situation, though I prepared an etched overlay for a riveted J26 smokebox. 

A J18/19 has been on my to do list for 40 years, so I'll put my hand up for two.

John

 

I do agree it'd be market saturation, especially for the likes of the Bandon Tank and the J26, which have not only brass kits in 4mm but also 3d printed consideration in the near future.

That said, what seems to be most popular so far is

J18 (4/5)

Elf (3)

J30 (2/3)

Only the J30 has any form of model in 4mm, that being a 3d print.

Somewhat surprised the Ivatt F6 hasn't received any love!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Galteemore]

32 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

I do agree it'd be market saturation, especially for the likes of the Bandon Tank and the J26, which have not only brass kits in 4mm but also 3d printed consideration in the near future.

That said, what seems to be most popular so far is

J18 (4/5)

Elf (3)

J30 (2/3)

Only the J30 has any form of model in 4mm, that being a 3d print.

Somewhat surprised the Ivatt F6 hasn't received any love!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it’s all most interesting. I’d say tbh that an F6 could work well as a 3d print. That footplate is very tricky to get right in brass. Got that T-shirt….

[GSR 800]

53 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Yes it’s all most interesting. I’d say tbh that an F6 could work well as a 3d print. That footplate is very tricky to get right in brass. Got that T-shirt….

Yours is a fine model indeed! They are a lovely prototype.

The J18 isn't much better in terms of footplate, though at least it lacks side tanks! 

If Roger confirms suitability for 00, may bite the bullet and go for three J18s to get it across the line.

Somewhat surprised at the lack of attention to other rolling stock also. Roger has mentioned the card kits are all available in 4mm, I'll be getting the MGWR TPO.

[Galteemore]

Card kits are fab and make great templates. I used one to make the signal box I just finished. 

[GSR 800]

Just now, Galteemore said:

Card kits are fab and make great templates. I used one to make the signal box I just finished. 

Indeed, I was thinking of using it for exactly that, buying up multiples of everything MGWR!

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, GSR 800 said:

Yours is a fine model indeed! They are a lovely prototype.

The J18 isn't much better in terms of footplate, though at least it lacks side tanks! 

If Roger confirms suitability for 00, may bite the bullet and go for three J18s to get it across the line.

Somewhat surprised at the lack of attention to other rolling stock also. Roger has mentioned the card kits are all available in 4mm, I'll be getting the MGWR TPO.

The glaring omission is the standard MGWR 6-wheeled third, produced in large numbers from the late 1880s to the early 1900s. These were extremely well built and after 1925 to be seen as far afield as Donaghadee and Bangor (several on loan for some years to the BCDR), Bantry, Baltimore, Rosslare, Fenit, Harcourt Street, Youghal and Birr, as well as every corner of their home MGWR territory - right up to the very end of six-wheelers being used to carry passengers in 1963. In fact, the very last set of six-wheelers still in passenger use that year was the spare set for rush hour and Youghal weekend excursions, based in Cork. And most of these were MGWR types, not GSWR.

For any layout 1925-63, they’re essential. 

Fun fact; in 1964, the Record Society managed to persuade the powers that be to allow one - by now withdrawn for a year - to be used for society members going over to Albert Quay from Glanmire for an “outing”, as the society still quaintly refers to its jaunts….  (visions of the participants being “let out for the day”, closely monitored by men in white coats, with an all-important kit of compulsory medication at hand…..)

As I digress and ramble; old age permits such things - I’ve been a member of the IRRS for 56 years, so I remember Drumcondra and the even-then venerably antiquated ethos of meetings, where instead of a member “giving a talk” or “presentation” about something, they “gave a Paper” on the subject.

Yes, even then it sounded antique, and I attended many such “papers”….. and then started “giving” them in later life.

It’s a wonder the jax wasn’t called a “flushing water closet”….

Jayyysus. If I’m ever advertised to the gricing fraternity as “giving a paper” on something, fer gawds sake don’t go - I wouldn’t!

BUT; to revert. If he can do a MGWR 3rd, I’ll take three to start things going.

Edited 5 hours ago by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

On 11/12/2025 at 5:06 PM, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks for having the discussion. I guess the challenge is to find enough people with similar interests!

From the range, I’d be more interested in MGWR 6-wheel coaches and, maybe, a J30. 

Well, I’d be up for three MGWR 6-wheel thirds (or seconds), so that’s half a minimum batch.

[GSR 800]

8 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

The glaring omission is the standard MGWR 6-wheeled third, produced in large numbers from the late 1880s to the early 1900s. These were extremely well built and after 1925 to be seen as far afield as Donaghadee and Bangor (several on loan for some years to the BCDR), Bantry, Baltimore, Rosslare, Fenit, Harcourt Street, Youghal and Birr, as well as every corner of their home MGWR territory - right up to the very end of six-wheelers being used to carry passengers in 1963. In fact, the very last set of six-wheelers still in passenger use that year was the spare set for rush hour and Youghal weekend excursions, based in Cork. And most of these were MGWR types, not GSWR.

For any layout 1925-63, they’re essential. 

Fun fact; in 1964, the Record Society managed to persuade the powers that be to allow one - by now withdrawn for a year - to be used for society members going over to Albert Quay from Glanmire for an “outing”, as the society still quaintly refers to its jaunts….  (visions of the participants being “let out for the day”, closely monitored by men in white coats, with an all-important kit of compulsory medication at hand…..)

As I digress and ramble; old age permits such things - I’ve been a member of the IRRS for 56 years, so I remember Drumcondra and the even-then venerably antiquated ethos of meetings, where instead of a member “giving a talk” or “presentation” about something, they “gave a Paper” on the subject.

Yes, even then it sounded antique, and I attended many such “papers”….. and then started “giving” them in later life.

It’s a wonder the jax wasn’t called a “flushing water closet”….

Jayyysus. If I’m ever advertised to the gricing fraternity as “giving a paper” on something, fer gawds sake don’t go - I wouldn’t!

BUT; to revert. If he can do a MGWR 3rd, I’ll take three to start things going.

I'd be willing to take two, with Mols one its enough to get an MGWR 3rd across the line.

Any thoughts for the MGWR 4 wheel parcels van, 'The Hearse'?

[Mol_PMB]

Yes, the MGWR third would be my first choice of the coaches so please include me in that count. 
I’ll have a look at my carriage register spreadsheet when I get home, and remind myself which other types were late survivors. I think the lav compo? Not so sure about the brake third in the condition modelled.

[Ironroad]

1 hour ago, GSR 800 said:

I'd be willing to take two, with Mols one its enough to get an MGWR 3rd across the line.

Any thoughts for the MGWR 4 wheel parcels van, 'The Hearse'?

A couple of MGWR 3rds would be of interest to me but I'm on the fence here as this would be toe in the water project for me, Do we have any idea of price and what absent parts do we need to provide details of to Killian?