CIE Horseboxes

[Mol_PMB]

6 minutes ago, Colonel said:

Lovely stuff, again! Horseboxes  definitely fit into the parcels/npcrs for me = nice and varied train make ups.

 In amongst all the info, realised that my comment about the Sligo Leitrim WL&WR horsebox with a dog box at one end is wrong. 'Tis of course a MGW one I was thinking about. Noticed my error when both were out on Northport Quay at Canterbury on Saturday. 

That's a very good reminder though, because it means that photos of the SLNCR horsebox may also be representative of the WLWR type. A quick glance at Sprinks p69 shows a very similar vehicle to the WLWR types illustrated above, although Shepherd's book on the WLWR indicates that it was an older vehicle than those which survived into CIE days.

A very quick search on Flickr didn't find any more photos of it on the SLNCR, but I did spot this, perhaps the remains of its predecessor?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511876260/

 

 

 

[Rob R]

That is just outside the GNR Enniskillen locoshed, so I would have thought that it is more likely ex-GNR (or a constituent).

I think it was the GSWR/GSR that trashed the SLNCR original horsebox, hence the WLWR replacement.

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

19 minutes ago, Rob R said:

That is just outside the GNR Enniskillen locoshed, so I would have thought that it is more likely ex-GNR (or a constituent).

I think it was the GSWR/GSR that trashed the SLNCR original horsebox, hence the WLWR replacement.

 

 

From which we might deduce that the SLNCR wagons sometimes ventured far from home. Interesting... For some reason I had thought they were confined to SLNCR metals. 

[Mol_PMB]

I was looking through a few more books over lunch, and can add some more horsebox photo references:

'Irish Railways Past and Present vol 1' (Baker) p36, dated circa 1910, monochrome: 3 horseboxes being shunted: GSWR Diagrams 100, 101, 100.

'Irish Standard Gauge Railways' (Middlemass) p16 and p22, dated July 1938, monochrome: two views of horseboxes being shunted, MGWR with dog box, GSWR Diagram 103, GSWR Diagram 100 visible.

'Irish Railways Past and Present vol 1' (Baker) p55, dated 1959, monochrome: rake of 10 mixed horseboxes stabled at Limerick Junction.

'The Railways of Ireland Past and Present: Dublin' (Baker) p.98, dated August 1970, monochrome: Two GSWR/GSR Diagram 103 horseboxes in grey livery; the nearer one is no.295 with 60 MPH MAX branding.

The Railways of the Republic of Ireland 1925-75' (Baker) p85, dated August 1973 (very late date, but is it right, as the rake looks very similar to the one above dated August 1970), monochrome: the main subject is a GSWR Diagram 103 horsebox in grey livery, and the edge of another just visible.

 

[Galteemore]

21 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

From which we might deduce that the SLNCR wagons sometimes ventured far from home. Interesting... For some reason I had thought they were confined to SLNCR metals. 

Absolutely not. They always travelled to the shipping ports - the animals were not cross decked. Possibly Derry was a destination but definitely Belfast several times a week. Most cattle traffic through Belfast actually travelled by SLNC. The irony was that SLNC passenger stock never travelled off network (after a significant incident in Greenore) but its cattle trucks travelled very far. 

Edited January 19 by Galteemore

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Galteemore said:

Absolutely not. They travelled to the shipping ports. Possibly Derry but definitely Belfast. Most cattle traffic through Belfast actually travelled by SLNC 

And in the case of this horsebox, presumably somewhere south of Sligo?

[Galteemore]

Just now, Mol_PMB said:

And in the case of this horsebox, presumably somewhere south of Sligo?

Yep, lots of horse country south of Sligo! 

[Patrick Davey]

Were horse boxes mane line vehicles?

[Mol_PMB]

12 minutes ago, Patrick Davey said:

Were horse boxes mane line vehicles?

If marshalled at the back of the train, they were tail traffic.

13 minutes ago, Patrick Davey said:

Were horse boxes mane line vehicles?

And I'd just like to clarify, when we refer to grey livery on a horsebox, we don't mean white. Unlike the horses themselves.

[jhb171achill]

8 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

From which we might deduce that the SLNCR wagons sometimes ventured far from home. Interesting... For some reason I had thought they were confined to SLNCR metals. 

The GNR to the north and the MGWR / WLWR / GSWR / GSR / CIE to the south were always wary of SLNC wagons in their territory, as maintenance standards could be somewhat "tired"!

Senior recalled watching Sligo Leitrim cattle wagons being shunted one warm summer evening in Enniskillen in the mid-1950s. All of a sudden, the coupling broke between the (GNR) loco and a Sligo van. The entire front buffer beam came off the wagon!

7 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Absolutely not. They always travelled to the shipping ports - the animals were not cross decked. Possibly Derry was a destination but definitely Belfast several times a week. Most cattle traffic through Belfast actually travelled by SLNC. The irony was that SLNC passenger stock never travelled off network (after a significant incident in Greenore) but its cattle trucks travelled very far. 

True, but the vast majority of the wagons on the "shipper" were likely not SLNC vehicles..... GSR / CIE & GNR mostly.

[Mol_PMB]

An interesting section in the book about the Valentia Harbour line describes the livestock fairs, including how various animals were transported. I imagine that this was based on the text of railway instructions.

"Horses were transported in horse boxes, and before being accepted for conveyance were carefully inspected to see if they suffered from injury, wounds or other defects, and if so this was drawn to the owner's attention and a note made on the waybill. It was the duty of the staff to assist in the loading and tying up of horses and to ensure that the head collar was properly secured on the animal and properly adjusted. A chin rope was used, being adjusted so that it gave the animal's head restricted freedom and prevented its head coming into contact with the roof of the box or getting its forefeet in the manger. Horses were examined frequently to see that they were travelling safely. The removal of partitions was not allowed on the instance of a sender unless he signed an indemnity relieving the company from responsibility. If a sender wished to dispense with the head collar in the horse box an endorsement to this effect had to be made on the ticket and it had to be signed by the sender."

Perhaps @Horsetan can give us some context of how this compares to the modern transport of horses?

[Mayner]

On 20/1/2026 at 10:52 AM, jhb171achill said:

The GNR to the north and the MGWR / WLWR / GSWR / GSR / CIE to the south were always wary of SLNC wagons in their territory, as maintenance standards could be somewhat "tired"!

Senior recalled watching Sligo Leitrim cattle wagons being shunted one warm summer evening in Enniskillen in the mid-1950s. All of a sudden, the coupling broke between the (GNR) loco and a Sligo van. The entire front buffer beam came off the wagon!

True, but the vast majority of the wagons on the "shipper" were likely not SLNC vehicles..... GSR / CIE & GNR mostly.

Seems to be a bit of a crossover with Robs post on SLNCR wagons.

The buffer beam (and sometimes complete end) being pulled out of a wagon seems to have been common enough in loose coupled days including both GN and CIE wagons and make an interesting scenic effect. During the late 70s I recall an ex-GN Van (Patrickswell) and a CIE Van (Moate) dumped near the end of a siding/layby with one end, bufferbeam and draw gear missing but otherwise appeared ok.

I suspect that mainly GN/SLNCR wagons were mainly used in later years with Collooney the main loading point for cattle traffic. In his SLNCR books Neil Spinks wrote about the "Southern Siding" being little used  (for interchange traffic) after the formation of the GSR and being used only for wagon storage after 1944. (wagon load traffic being exchanged at Sligo Quay. Its possible cattle from the ex-WLWR line were unloaded in the Southern Yard and either driven to the SLNCR yard for loading or watered and rested before resuming their journey.

My father remembered (as a kid) cattle been driven along the road from the fair in Kiltimagh (WLWR line) to Claremorris (Midland) for loading. Its possible Sligo/West of Ireland cattle dealers/ may have negotiated preferential rates for shipping export cattle over the SLNCR and GNR through Collooney rather than through routing via the GS/CIE. 

Interestingly Collooney (Midland) became the main loading point for the Sligo-North Wall "Shipper" after the SLNCR closed in 1957, its possible dealers arranged road transport to the railhead/lairage from local fairs. The Southern Yard was disconnected at some st6age before the Burma Rd closed in 1975.

[seagoebox]

A couple of MGWR horseboxes, 5m at Albert Quay, May 1960 and 32m at The Broadstone (solebar is marked Inchicore 7-1930)

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks @seagoebox - an excellent view of each of the main types of MGWR horsebox, and a different example of GSR livery.

I've found a few more horsebox photos in my trawl through the library, and can offer the following references:

• Railways in Ireland Part 3 DSER/MGWR etc (Bairstow) page 62, dated 1914, monochrome: MGWR horsebox (early type with dogbox) in MGWR livery.
• Railways in Ireland Part 4 GSWR (Bairstow) page 41, dated 1914, monochrome: 3 horseboxes GSWR diagrams 101, 100, 103 being shunted at Kingsbridge.
• Railways in Ireland Part 3 DSER/MGWR etc (Bairstow) page 35, dated 1954, monochrome: at least 3 horseboxes at head of train, 2xGSWR diagram 103 and another older type maybe diagram 100.
• Railways in Ireland Part 4 GSWR (Bairstow) page 87, dated 1955, monochrome: 3 horseboxes MGWR later type and 2xGSWR diagram 103 attached to rear of a Tralee-Limerick passenger train.
• Railways in Ireland Part 4 GSWR (Bairstow) page 87, dated 1955, monochrome: GSWR diagram 101 horsebox in Foynes passenger/mixed train.
• Irish Railways since 1916 (Baker) page 96b, undated, monochrome, Sulzer 1101 with a short passenger train, diagram 103 horsebox immediately behind the loco.
• Irish Railways in the 1950s and 1960s (McCormack) page 151, dated 1957, colour: loco 800 leading a 'horse van train'. Only one and a bit horseboxes are in shot, the first a very tatty diagram 103 and the second (only just visible) appears to be similar but freshly repainted in light green. 
• Irish Railways in the 1950s and 1960s (McCormack) page 154, dated 1957, colour: End view of a diagram 103 with black end but side colour is hard to make out. 

 

 

[Horsetan]

On 20/1/2026 at 6:07 PM, Mol_PMB said:

..."Horses were transported in horse boxes, and before being accepted for conveyance were carefully inspected to see if they suffered from injury, wounds or other defects, and if so this was drawn to the owner's attention and a note made on the waybill. It was the duty of the staff to assist in the loading and tying up of horses and to ensure that the head collar was properly secured on the animal and properly adjusted. A chin rope was used, being adjusted so that it gave the animal's head restricted freedom and prevented its head coming into contact with the roof of the box or getting its forefeet in the manger. Horses were examined frequently to see that they were travelling safely. The removal of partitions was not allowed on the instance of a sender unless he signed an indemnity relieving the company from responsibility. If a sender wished to dispense with the head collar in the horse box an endorsement to this effect had to be made on the ticket and it had to be signed by the sender."

Perhaps @Horsetan can give us some context of how this compares to the modern transport of horses?

The basic principles outlined above still hold good for horse transport by trailer or lorry today, and almost all horses are transported in this fashion, the horse generally wearing a standard headcollar which has a leadrope clipped underneath, which is then tied to a ring mounted to a horizontal beam. There is enough room given to allow the horse to move its head in order to access a haynet (snacking in-transit is very important as it gives the horse something to do rather than be stressed). Divider partitions can be mounted longitudinally or transversely, but must be close to the horse's body; there is some wiggle room allowed for on either side, but no more than that.

Air transport is slightly different in that each horse stands in its own individual open crate, which is then lifted onto or out of the fuselage.

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks to Ernie, a lovely photo showing a Diagram 103 horsebox in use in 1964, and north of the border too, in Belfast.

Light green livery with XP lettering, and it is indeed in an XP train with an eclectic mix of vehicles:

 

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks to Antony and Des Coakham, here's a dimensioned sketch of the SLNCR horsebox. This was a former WLWR vehicle. The sketch provides much more detail than the GSWR diagram 102 (upthread).

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/uploads/monthly_2026_02/9-24.thumb.jpg.ef933b0ecde8783cb21da9ed2ebfec91.jpg

[Mol_PMB]

The horsebox is taking shape, and with added details and modifications is starting to look a bit more Irish.

These are rather cruel closeups, and also show some of the small compromises I've had to make in converting a GCR kit into a WLWR vehicle. 

I've also found that there are subtle differences between the individual vehicles in this class, perhaps unsurprising after 70 years in service. Particularly which panels have beading round them, and its exact positioning.

Of course the photos only show parts of the vehicle so I may end up with a bit of a compromise between them. Never mind, there can't be many WLWR horsebox models out there!

Adding all these surface details would have been perfect for a resistance soldering unit, but I'm doing it the old-school way and perhaps need a bit more cleaning up.

Before I can go much further with this, I need to finish off the artwork for my custom etch, as that includes the new ends for this vehicle.

[Patrick Davey]

Lovely!

[Mol_PMB]

The 1946 CIE coach classification lists the following horseboxes, which are listed in order of length rather than origin. This seems consistent with the data I provided before but adds more info on the MGWR and GSR vehicles.

 

MGWR 15'0" long, built 1881-1901:

5M, 6M, 7M, 8M, 14M, 19M, 24M, 47M, 48M, 50M, 52M, 53M, 55M, 60M

 

DSER 15'3" long,  built 1879-1913:

1D, 7D, 8D, 9D, 14D

 

GSWR 15'6" long, built 1893:

195-198, 260-265, 267, 268, 270-279

 

WLWR 15'6" long, built 1897-1898:

1025, 1026, 1037, 1038, 1040

 

GSWR 16'0" long, built 1893-1907:

146-149, 155, 156, 159, 161-163, 166-172, 174-178, 181, 183, 185, 283-292, 1056-1061, 1063-1067

 

MGWR 16'6" long, built 1906-1921:

1M, 9M, 11M, 20M, 26M-32M, 35M-38M, 41M, 42M, 43M, 45M, 46M, 54M, 56M

 

GSWR 19'9" long, built 1911-1913:

142, 144, 154, 164, 179, 199, 294-296, 298, 1023, 1024, 1028-1036, 1041, 1100-1109

GSWR 19'9" long, built 1924:

2980-2985

 

GSR 19'9" long, built 1926-1927:

2986-3005

 

 

In the 1946 listing, 24M is listed but struck out, so presumably an early withdrawal. 

I also have a listing dated 1953 which has both  24M and 279 struck out. 

 

For completeness, the following narrow-gauge horseboxes are also listed: 

19L, 20L, 28C, 1T.

 

 

One interesting addition to the information is which horseboxes were steam piped (i.e. for steam heating). I'm surprised that this was a minority of them, given that horseboxes were often marshalled at the front of a train and if they weren't piped then the loco couldn't provide heating to the train. Those shown as piped are:

MGWR: 6M, 8M, 14M, 47M, 11M

GSR: 2986-3005

 

[Mol_PMB]

Having another trawl through my IRRS journals I have found a lovely photo in No.184 (June 2014) inside the back cover.

It shows a fair special from Kingsbridge to Carlow on Sunday 25 July 1948. It has slowed while passing some PW work on the adjacent line and this seems to have encouraged the passengers to lean out of the window and look at what's going on.

The train comproses J4 0-6-0 257, then six various horseboxes including GSWR types and one WLWR, all occupied and with some of the grooms visible peering from their compartments. The first horsebox is still in tatty GSR livery but the other 5 have acquired a snail so are presumably in dark green.

Next is an old arc-roof bogie passenger carriage, with passengers on board, followed by a 'sleeping car' (it appears to be a 6-wheel coach but only has short footboards), again occupied. The remainder of the train comprises a long string of cattle wagons stretching into the distance - the brake van is out of sight.

So that gives a nice example of how a fair special might be formed up and how one might use horsebox models. I promise to finish my model soon!

 

[Mol_PMB]

A few more snippets on horseboxes.

Firstly, a nice print I acquired on eBay recently showing J26 561 and a matching MGWR horsebox of the later type, in 1950:

I also bought a few weekly operating notices on eBay recently, dating from late 1960. Here are some details of a horsebox special to Listowel races:

And a much more extensive set of special trains associated with the bloodstock sales at Ballsbridge:

 

 

[Wexford70]

Ex-works CIÉ J4 Class 0-6-0 No. 261 emerges from Phoenix Park Tunnel with four horse boxes from Amiens St, February 1954. captured by the late David Murray/IRRS Archive. #irishrailarchives #irishrailways

[Patrick Davey]

Very nice - such an incredible resource is the IRRS Flickr archive!

[Mayner]

13 hours ago, Wexford70 said:

Ex-works CIÉ J4 Class 0-6-0 No. 261 emerges from Phoenix Park Tunnel with four horse boxes from Amiens St, February 1954. captured by the late David Murray/IRRS Archive. #irishrailarchives #irishrailways

The J4/257 & similar J9 351 Class 0-6-0s appear to be reasonable candidates for a 3D printed body to run on a Bachmann 3F or 4F  chassis. Both classes have a coupled wheelbase of 7'7"+8'6" compared with 8'+8'6" for the British locos. The J4 257 Class introduced 1913 appear to have been highly regarded locos suitable for both goods and secondary passenger work and a popular choise for both cattle and horsebox specials (A Decade of Steam and Locomotives of the GSR). The J4 was basically an updated superheated verison of the J9 introduced 1903 first batch of J9 had a low running plate with slotted splashers similar in appearance to J15, 1912 batch J9 similar in a appearance to J4. J9s also carried out main line passenger work1951  photo of 353 (1903 batch) on Rosslare-Dublin Mail Wexford Nth Aug 1954 (A decade of Steam)

[Mol_PMB]

30 minutes ago, Mayner said:

The J4/257 & similar J9 351 Class 0-6-0s appear to be reasonable candidates for a 3D printed body to run on a Bachmann 3F or 4F  chassis. Both classes have a coupled wheelbase of 7'7"+8'6" compared with 8'+8'6" for the British locos. The J4 257 Class introduced 1913 appear to have been highly regarded locos suitable for both goods and secondary passenger work and a popular choise for both cattle and horsebox specials (A Decade of Steam and Locomotives of the GSR). The J4 was basically an updated superheated verison of the J9 introduced 1903 first batch of J9 had a low running plate with slotted splashers similar in appearance to J15, 1912 batch J9 similar in a appearance to J4. J9s also carried out main line passenger work1951  photo of 353 (1903 batch) on Rosslare-Dublin Mail Wexford Nth Aug 1954 (A decade of Steam)

Jack O’Neill has this to say on the J4 class: