Rail freight on Ireland

[Junctionmad]

I was just looking at some facts and figures for railway activity in the UK, past and present. Whatever you think, privatisation was the best thing to happen to BR. UK railways are busier now then anytime in their history. More people then ever in its history are now carried by UK railways, track is being relaid, doubled etc

 

Rail freight in tonnes carried is now back to levels seen in the 50s with a forecast that this will double by 2030, consumer freight , like goods for the multiples is returning to rail and the market is now limited by track paths and loco resources rather then demand

Wow.

 

Just what is going wrong with irish railways ??

[Mayner]

I think its been a combination of external and internal factors including changes in transport policy including the de-regulation of the road transport industry, Government pressure on IE to focus on passenger services rather than run a mixed traffic railway.

 

The loss of major customers such as IFI, Bell, Asahi and eventually Geencore, Guinness and Irish Cement. Some traffic was lost to industry closure, road competition and changes in shipping patterns. The failure of Bell Lines effectively ended North Esk, The Holyhead Yard and Grovesnor Road freight yards role as inland ports for Waterford. Traffic that was once shipped by rail through Waterford Port goes out directly through a local port.

 

Road haulage was de-regulated in the early 1990s effectively breaking up CIEs and the Licensed Hauliers monopoly on road haulage.

 

The long term future of the railways are still under question with investment dependent on EU Grants into the early 2000, Government policy required CIE to sell surplus land to fund investment in passenger services. One Transport Minister publicly stated that the Government was not in the business of subsidising the railways to transport freight for private business. (Possibly the risk of the road transport industry bringing a case to the EU over unfair competition by a Semi State Company).

 

An experienced management team that had done a reasonable job on running a railway team were replaced by a team who had little or no experience in running a mixed traffic railway with low traffic density.

 

In a way the situation is similar to the UK in the run up to privatisation when freight traffic was loaded up with costs in order to drive away business.

 

There appears to be an element of double dipping by IE with costs, the current General Manager has admitted that full infrastructure costs are charged for running freights on passenger lines although these costs are already charged out to the passenger services.

 

The tide may be turning in a similar manner to the UK the run down of Road Liner as a competitor may lead transport companies like to use rail for line haul work and develop their own rail serviced depots and used leased rather than railway company wagons.

 

IE have indicated that short train lengths are an issue and are looking at the feasibility of running longer trains at night to avoid issues with short passing loops on single lines

[Junctionmad]

I see average track access charges for ordinary freight ( non coal) in the uk are around equivalent €2 per kgtm, whereas IE infrastructure have recently stated that it beleives appropriate equivalent track access here I'd around € 9.50 kgtm .. Well well, funny that

[Warbonnet]

Privatization has been good for the UK when it comes to Rail Freight, there is no doubt about that. However, the passenger side is a mess. The subsidies paid out to operators by the British Government costs more now than BR ever did. It's also horrendously expensive to travel by rail.

 

Privatization is inevitable in Ireland, I just hope we learn from mistakes made elsewhere.

[Noel]

Privatization is inevitable in Ireland, I just hope we learn from mistakes made elsewhere.

 

If one was a cynic one might wonder if part of the reason the mk3 coaching stock and so many locos were cut up in the last decade was in case they might possibly fall into the hands of future competitors.

 

Ireland geographically is a small island with a small rail network, so I'm not sure if the typical privatisation model would work here due to the economies of scale (e.g. one operator for the track infrastructure and multiple carriers for services)! BTW, how does the UK get away with private rail subsidies in EU land? Our govt is not allowed subsidise Aer Lingus anymore!

[Broithe]

BTW, how does the UK get away with private rail subsidies in EU land? Our govt is not allowed subsidise Aer Lingus anymore!

 

The taxpayer-funded subsidies to the UK's 'private' rail system now far exceed anything that the nationalised system could have even dreamed of....

[Junctionmad]

Privatization has been good for the UK when it comes to Rail Freight, there is no doubt about that. However, the passenger side is a mess. The subsidies paid out to operators by the British Government costs more now than BR ever did. It's also horrendously expensive to travel by rail.

 

Privatization is inevitable in Ireland, I just hope we learn from mistakes made elsewhere.

 

If the passagner side is a mess, then why are record numbers of passagners , greater then anytime in the past , being carried on uk railways. I don't see " the mess " . The numbers don't lie and their seems to be no political imperative from any uk party to change things. The system works

 

In fact it's a return to the " big four" type setup

 

The model has now " extracted" far more public money for the railway infrastructure then ever before. Surely that's a great thing, it's now on a par with roads etc, that's a very clear statement of intent

Edited May 6, 2015 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

The taxpayer-funded subsidies to the UK's 'private' rail system now far exceed anything that the nationalised system could have even dreamed of....

 

Isn't that great, rail infrastructure is being funded properly

 

I mean uk railfreight is expected by 2030 to exceed any figures ever carried on uk railways ever. Who'd have believed that , 20 years ago !!! N

Edited May 6, 2015 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

Ireland geographically is a small island with a small rail network, so I'm not sure if the typical privatisation model would work here due to the economies of scale (e.g. one operator for the track infrastructure and multiple carriers for services)! BTW, how does the UK get away with private rail subsidies in EU land? Our govt is not allowed subsidise Aer Lingus anymore!

 

Because EU rules allow for infrastructure investment , which is what network rail is, it's a purely public body. Aer lingual on the other hand is in effect a private company. For example airport infrastructure can be invested in by the gov.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Junctionmad

[Broithe]

Isn't that great, rail is being funded properly

 

Maybe it would have been greater if it had been properly funded before - the cost to the nation is far greater than it was before the break-up.

[Junctionmad]

Maybe it would have been greater if it had been properly funded before - the cost to the nation is far greater than it was before the break-up.

 

That's irrelevant. The inefficiencies in BR would have killed the extra investment , it's whataboutery

 

Again, your argument is irrelevant( as it's only money ) , the numbers simply don't lie. UK rail is on course to be bigger then anytime in its history. 20-30 years ago you'd be laughed out of the room , if you suggested that

 

Whereas in Ireland .............

[Broithe]

Please yourself.

[Junctionmad]

Please yourself.

 

Why, do you disagree with the uk subsidy to rail infrastructure on principle.

[Warbonnet]

That's irrelevant. The inefficiencies in BR would have killed the extra investment , it's whataboutery

 

Again, your argument is irrelevant( as it's only money ) , the numbers simply don't lie. UK rail is on course to be bigger then anytime in its history. 20-30 years ago you'd be laughed out of the room , if you suggested that

 

Whereas in Ireland .............

 

BR was seen as highly efficient when it was broken up in many areas. It was privatized as it was the buzz word of the Governments of the day. Public money is being poured into private companies and shareholders get richer than ever. I believe Irish citizens have been on the streets protesting about similar occurrences here.

 

It's only money? Everything comes down to money. You cannot compare the rail system with the UK and Ireland as they're vastly different. Also, journey times havent improved. Travelling numbers have gone up of course, but so have fares, ahead of the rate of inflation and car ownership is up too. Having lived in the UK their system is not what you're cracking it up to be.

[Junctionmad]

BR was seen as highly efficient when it was broken up in many areas. It was privatized as it was the buzz word of the Governments of the day. Public money is being poured into private companies and shareholders get richer than ever. I believe Irish citizens have been on the streets protesting about similar occurrences here.

 

It's only money? Everything comes down to money. You cannot compare the rail system with the UK and Ireland as they're vastly different. Also, journey times havent improved. Travelling numbers have gone up of course, but so have fares, ahead of the rate of inflation and car ownership is up too. Having lived in the UK their system is not what you're cracking it up to be.

 

 

I'm sorry, these are broken record complaints. Journey times , for example, on WCML have of course improved , even with the half baked upgrade debacle , journey times elsewhere have also improved , these are matters of fact

 

Leave aside the actual privatisation process, undoubtably that had several issues , the big one being railtrack . But what's there now is in effect identical to the LUAS , ie franchised operation of a public asset. It's very successful with LUAS , as it has been in the uk.

 

I dispute that today in the uk , that public money is being poured into private companies. Yes at the sell off , in effect ROCs and infrastructure sell offs lined private pockets. But that has stopped. Today in a lot of cases it's a struggle for TOCs to succeed, and all Gov subsidies are going into network rail, which is a state company. ( and those subsidies are reducing, while capital spending is growing )

 

Again ticket pricing is irrelevant, it's purely a function of the elastic demand. If your customer base is growing , your pricing model is right. ( as a general rule)

 

Again looking at the numbers , they don't lie. More passangers then anytime in its history , more railfreight by 2030 then anytime in its history.

 

The golden age of uk railways wasn't the 1930s , it's likely to be the 2030s

 

 

I agree Ireland isn't the same, but unless we change something , there will be no railways in 20 years in this country. The nationalisation model has comprehensively failed IMHO

Edited May 6, 2015 by Junctionmad

[Warbonnet]

I'm sorry, these are broken record complaints. Journey times , for example, on WCML have of course improved , even with the half baked upgrade debacle , journey times elsewhere have also improved , these are matters of fact

 

Leave aside the actual privatisation process, undoubtably that had several issues , the big one being railtrack . But what's there now is in effect identical to the LUAS , ie franchised operation of a public asset. It's very successful with LUAS , as it has been in the uk.

 

I dispute that today in the uk , that public money is being poured into private companies. Yes at the sell off , in effect ROCs and infrastructure sell offs lined private pockets. But that has stopped. Today in a lot of cases it's a struggle for TOCs to succeed, and all Gov subsidies are going into network rail, which is a state company. ( and those subsidies are reducing, while capital spending is growing )

 

Again ticket pricing is irrelevant, it's purely a function of the elastic demand. If your customer base is growing , your pricing model is right. ( as a general rule)

 

Again looking at the numbers , they don't lie. More passangers then anytime in its history , more railfreight by 2030 then anytime in its history.

 

The golden age of uk railways wasn't the 1930s , it's likely to be the 2030s

 

 

I agree Ireland isn't the same, but unless we change something , there will be no railways in 20 years in this country. The nationalisation model has comprehensively failed IMHO

 

I think I'll leave it there. If you dont want to accept facts as being relevant then there is no point in engaging. I think other posters are feeling the same sadly.

[NIRCLASS80]

I think that the East Coast main line between London / Edinburgh recently proved the point that a company owned by the government can run a very efficient service. This company ran the service after private operator National Express almost completely ruined the service. The East Coast ran a good service but in the end was effectively privatized again even when the company ran at a profit and reduced subsidy.

A recent programme on tv was very impressed with the way the NIR system ran under government control and less subsidy than any of the operators on the Mainland UK.

[Junctionmad]

I think I'll leave it there. If you dont want to accept facts as being relevant then there is no point in engaging. I think other posters are feeling the same sadly.

 

I'm sorry. Journey time improvements are a matter of record , passangers numbers are a matter of record , rail freight volumes Are a matter of record.

 

Other then that your just arguing politics , ( ie private versus public) I'm arguing for what has shown to work, even if it's an imperfect success , it's still a success.

[Junctionmad]

I think that the East Coast main line between London / Edinburgh recently proved the point that a company owned by the government can run a very efficient service. This company ran the service after private operator National Express almost completely ruined the service. The East Coast ran a good service but in the end was effectively privatized again even when the company ran at a profit and reduced subsidy.

A recent programme on tv was very impressed with the way the NIR system ran under government control and less subsidy than any of the operators on the Mainland UK.

 

Indeed , my argument is precisely not about nationalisation versus privatisation ( of all flavours j it's an argument about what has shown to result in significant rail growth.

 

I saw the NIR programme , but it's not really valid , simply because it's a descent into the lowest service /lowest cost approach , akin to IR . this is because there is no economic incentive for a nationalise rail company to aggressively seek growth ( i.e. wheres the freight success story on NIR for example)

Edited May 6, 2015 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

I think I'll leave it there. If you dont want to accept facts as being relevant then there is no point in engaging. I think other posters are feeling the same sadly.

 

What I was arguing is that however you look at it, Rail activity in the Uk has vastly increased , especially in Railfreight, it matters not really HOW that was achieved , or the arguments behind that . The fact is it has and is happening and is forecast to increase

 

Your view or my view as personal travellers on that system are somewhat irrelevant, look at it as a " black box".

 

SO UK railways, which in say the 80s, looked depressingly similar to Irish railways, are now experiencing growth, massive modernisation , reopening routes etc, faster train speeds etc ./ This is especially true for freight

 

whereas Irish railways continues its slow spiral into irrelevancy. I mean removethe couple of commuter routes and very little is left

 

It this continues rail will end in ireland as it will simply run itself into a full stop. something has to change dramatically

[Noel]

The essential truth is that only 6m people on the whole island is not going to support the same railway economics as a country with 60m population.

 

Add to that, the tiny geographical size here and short distances which favour motorways over rail, unlike the UK which has many large population centres very far apart. Chalk'n'cheese, what fits there may not fit here.

[Junctionmad]

The essential truth is that only 6m people on the whole island is not going to support the same railway economics as a country with 60m population.

 

Add to that, the tiny geographical size here and short distances which favour motorways over rail, unlike the UK which has many large population centres very far apart. Chalk'n'cheese, what fits there may not fit here.

 

 

Yes but that argument also applied in the 60s , 70s , 80s , 90s etc. But UK railways have dramatically upped their game.

 

Im not suggesting that an identical system would work here ( mind you Id argue the toss). But its clear the current one simply is leading to a lowest common demoninator railway, a " race to the bottom" so to speak. So do you continue or do you change ?

[Noel]

Yes but that argument also applied in the 60s , 70s , 80s , 90s etc. But UK railways have dramatically upped their game.

 

Im not suggesting that an identical system would work here ( mind you Id argue the toss). But its clear the current one simply is leading to a lowest common demoninator railway, a " race to the bottom" so to speak. So do you continue or do you change ?

 

But was it not the state policy in the 60s that the railways were subsidised as essential social infrastructure. If they now have to be financially viable and free standing is the market big enough now that the country is paved with empty motorways?

[Junctionmad]

But was it not the state policy in the 60s that the railways were subsidised as essential social infrastructure. If they now have to be financially viable and free standing is the market big enough now that the country is paved with empty motorways?

 

 

If anything Noel, the state is " carrying" the railways more then it was in the 60s. Successive ministers of Transport from Nationalisement forward promised CIE would " break even " etc. ITs only really recently that the notion of continuous social subsidy has taken hold in the form of the PSO.

 

the problem that the UK solved, is that in the UK, subsidy is now clearly seen as primary infrastructure investment and then secondly PSO type support for non profitable routes. There is a clear incentive for Network rail to justify track and infrastructure upgrades as this reduces its fines from the TOCs. equally the TOCs are heavily incentivised to ensure timely running etc. In Ireland , the block support for CIE encourages neither, in fact it does damage ,as CIE chases high profile public projects ( dart interconnector) and leaves simple interim improvements to fall by the wayside ( Park tunnel, non mail line speed improvements , new freight etc ) there is simply no reason for CIE to grow, as growth means it needs more money and consumes up resources

[Barl]

 

In Ireland , the block support for CIE encourages neither, in fact it does damage ,as CIE chases high profile public projects ( dart interconnector) and leaves simple interim improvements to fall by the wayside ( Park tunnel, non mail line speed improvements , new freight etc ) there is simply no reason for CIE to grow, as growth means it needs more money and consumes up resources

 

The Phoenix Park tunnel is in the pipeline to open to Kildare commuter traffic at some stage next year. I don't see any point in improving speeds on non-main line routes as these are mostly short hop journeys.

 

I have travelled by rail almost every day for the past 9 years or so and the quality of the service provided by IE in that time has increased significantly so its not all doom and gloom. We have one of the newest rail fleets in Europe while many parts of the UK are using 80's stock and as for the increased passenger numbers; surely this has something to do with the increase in the population around areas like London?

[Junctionmad]

The Phoenix Park tunnel is in the pipeline to open to Kildare commuter traffic at some stage next year. I don't see any point in improving speeds on non-main line routes as these are mostly short hop journeys.

 

I have travelled by rail almost every day for the past 9 years or so and the quality of the service provided by IE in that time has increased significantly so its not all doom and gloom. We have one of the newest rail fleets in Europe while many parts of the UK are using 80's stock and as for the increased passenger numbers; surely this has something to do with the increase in the population around areas like London?

 

IE takes 2 hours to cover 60 miles to Gorey, I think that could be bettered , 2 hours is hardly a " short hop"

 

IN fact the mk2 and mk3 stock that is refurbed on Uk railways, is some of THE most comfortable stock ever made. way better then 22K for example. ( quieter too).

 

Passagner number are up in the Uk, due to increased service, faster trains etc. Rail freight is resurgent , while it has in effect totally disappeared from the rail network here

 

Add to that an operating company that last year , essentially completely ran out of money

 

Things are not looking up

[Warbonnet]

IE takes 2 hours to cover 60 miles to Gorey, I think that could be bettered , 2 hours is hardly a " short hop"

 

IN fact the mk2 and mk3 stock that is refurbed on Uk railways, is some of THE most comfortable stock ever made. way better then 22K for example. ( quieter too).

 

Passagner number are up in the Uk, due to increased service, faster trains etc. Rail freight is resurgent , while it has in effect totally disappeared from the rail network here

 

Add to that an operating company that last year , essentially completely ran out of money

 

Things are not looking up

 

That rail trip you took last week has really taken its toll on you.

[Junctionmad]

That rail trip you took last week has really taken its toll on you.

 

yeah , next trip scheduled for 2020. recovery should be complete by then. I looked up timetabled times for that trip in the 50s . Things are not looking up. a read of the 2013 strategic rail review, has done nothing for my confidence

[Barl]

IE takes 2 hours to cover 60 miles to Gorey, I think that could be bettered , 2 hours is hardly a " short hop"

 

IN fact the mk2 and mk3 stock that is refurbed on Uk railways, is some of THE most comfortable stock ever made. way better then 22K for example. ( quieter too).

 

Passagner number are up in the Uk, due to increased service, faster trains etc. Rail freight is resurgent , while it has in effect totally disappeared from the rail network here

 

Add to that an operating company that last year , essentially completely ran out of money

 

Things are not looking up

 

True that it could be bettered but the same can probably be said for lots of routes throughout Ireland. In contrast (and on a positive note) I can get from Heuston to Sallins in about 16 minutes on certain services, try beating that by car!

 

I have never travelled by rail in the UK so I cannot comment on the comfort of the refurbished stock but, based on what others who have done have said previously on this forum, the 22ks are quite favorable and comfortable in comparison and I don't think having travelled one journey on them is enough to make the assumption that other stock is 'way better'.

 

Rail freight in the UK is increasing due to the fact that heavy industry is still prevalent there, something that is not the case here and is not the fault of IE. The refurbishment of the 071's, the presence of the DFDS and IWT liners, IE's new emphasis on attracting freight contracts among others would suggest that there is a future for rail freight in Ireland.

 

The fact that the NRA and the RPA are now, in essence, the same organisation would lead you to hope that there would be more cooperation in the future with regards to combining rail and road freight also.

[Junctionmad]

True that it could be bettered but the same can probably be said for lots of routes throughout Ireland. In contrast (and on a positive note) I can get from Heuston to Sallins in about 16 minutes on certain services, try beating that by car!

 

I have never travelled by rail in the UK so I cannot comment on the comfort of the refurbished stock but, based on what others who have done have said previously on this forum, the 22ks are quite favorable and comfortable in comparison and I don't think having travelled one journey on them is enough to make the assumption that other stock is 'way better'.

 

Rail freight in the UK is increasing due to the fact that heavy industry is still prevalent there, something that is not the case here and is not the fault of IE. The refurbishment of the 071's, the presence of the DFDS and IWT liners, IE's new emphasis on attracting freight contracts among others would suggest that there is a future for rail freight in Ireland.

 

The fact that the NRA and the RPA are now, in essence, the same organisation would lead you to hope that there would be more cooperation in the future with regards to combining rail and road freight also.

 

 

I'd love to agree with you here. Firstly UK rail freight s benefitting from the economies and dynamism behind freight operating companies. Secondly consumer freight is return to UK rail

 

In Ireland the 2013 rail review effectively abandoned freight and cast serious doubt on whether iE could now Marshall significant resources to actually operate any serious freight. 071 are refurbished because ir needs tbunderbirds and pw engines.

 

Then they have recently announced track charges of 9.6 euros per kgtm, 4-5 times European ( and UK ) prices , how's that a commitment to rail freight or even leased freight trains which the fee weeky liners are.

 

I'm a passionate believer in rail freight , I see no evidence at all that IR has any interest whatsoever in revving it., sadly

[Junctionmad]

 

The fact that the NRA and the RPA are now, in essence, the same organisation would lead you to hope that there would be more cooperation in the future with regards to combining rail and road freight also.

 

I don't beleive the Rpa has any role in heavy rail ?

[josefstadt]

I don't beleive the Rpa has any role in heavy rail ?

 

Correct. The RPA looks after light rail only and has no function in the provision of heavy rail services.

[Barl]

You're right the RPA only look after the Luas and proposed metro lines, apologies I've had the RPA on the brain a lot lately. Maybe there will be inner-city freight transported by Luas trams in the future ha

[leslie10646]

Whatever you think, privatisation was the best thing to happen to BR. UK railways are busier now then anytime in their history.

 

You've got to be joking!

 

The railways cost us over TWICE as much in subsidy in real terms as they did in BR days. Are you a UK taxpayer?

 

They can't renationalise the railways a day too soon!

 

Passenger numbers are up not due to privatisation, it is natural growth spurred on by an ever more gridlocked road system. Your railfreight figures puzzle me, in the 1950s, surely there were many times the number of freight trains that there are today?

 

I've just looked it up: see -

 

http://www.metadyne.co.uk/D_ml_freight_km.html

 

it's HALF what it was in the 1950s.

[jhb171achill]

It's simple mathematics. Fare income pays either (a) central government - in the case of a nationalised railway, or (b) a bit to shareholders and a bit to whoever - private or public - pays for new trains and track.

 

Under no mathematical, as opposed to political, circumstances, is the BR-model privatisation remotely efficient; thus, by definition it is bad value for any taxpayer.

 

The key reason is the very simple fact that among those with their nose in the financial trough, a new ingredient is introduced - management of numerous management-bloated "companies" and their shareholders!

 

Not one detail in any of this increases, by its own hand, the income. As Leslie says, other circumstances might, but that's nothing to do with the private-v-nationalisation issue.

 

Bring back BR!